Is DH controlling or am I permissive?

[ReluctantNeatFreak]

Sorry for long post (I'm a long-time lurker also) but I'm at my wit's end - my DH and I are on the brink of separation over our difference in parenting styles. It feels like there is lots worth saving in the marriage and I don't think any of us (me, DH, DD14, DD13) would be happy with separation, but I can't take any more days like this.

Our teenage girls do have a tendency to have messy bedrooms, leave their stuff around the house, don't eat enough fruit/veg, often prioritise seeing their mates in spare time rather than choosing to get homework/chores done first, bicker with each other, sometimes act resentfully towards parents and need to be asked several times before they get stuff done.

However, they get good grades and reports from school, have been chosen as patrol leaders in scouts, do chores like cleaning bathrooms, doing laundry, dishwashers and mowing lawns before they get any pocket money, and are usually articulate, funny, positive-minded, passionate, thoughtful of others, and (I think) generally good kids.

I feel like the negative stuff above is typical teenage stuff, and I have a 'coaching' style where I try to get them to behave better through regular prompting and encouragement, praising good behaviour and verbal admonishment when they have really let themselves down, etc. I very rarely raise my voice or give out punishments (reserved for lies and deceit, utterly unkind behaviour etc).

My DH believes that behaviours like the messy room or not eating healthily should result in sanctions (sometimes arbitrary or instant) like losing their phone for a day, banned from TV, being grounded for a day, having monitoring and checklists put in place and often shouts when he sees things that are below par or if his instructions aren't explicitly followed. If the girls (or I) protest and an argument ensues, it almost always ends up in him locking himself in his room and refusing to speak to the three of us for hours.

He thinks I undermine him and never hold the children to account. I think he's trying to exert control over teenagers in a way which makes them want to rebel more. We have a day of rows or not speaking at least once a fortnight, and this has gone on for years. The children are stressed, miserable and confused on these days.

DH is a very well-intentioned and loving Dad, but this situation is now degenerating so that they hardly ever have cuddles or chats now without him sniping or being critical and the girls retreating moodily. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells amongst them.

I honestly can no longer tell if I'm right (and he is overly strict) or if he's right (and the children would grow up with terrible life-damaging habits if he didn't teach them these lessons) and need outside opinions please.

Please let me know - YABU (DH is being a great parent and I am too permissive), YANBU (DH is being overly controlling and needs to enjoy his teenagers company more before they leave home).

An "obsession with optimising family life" sounds a bit like a desire to control other people, actually. (Who is he optimising family life FOR? Himself, it sounds like). Personally, I think controlling tendencies are about seeing other people as objects rather than people: you don't negotiate or compromise with an object, you learn how to control it. (Also, I wonder if you are a bit codependent since you say you've never lived on your own. You might want to work on that? Were your own parents controlling?)

I also wonder whether your daughters are keeping their rooms messy as a form of resistance to the sense that they are being controlled and micromanaged. This is a decent age for children to learn a new and more complex kind of boundary. If they are leaving the common areas messy then that affects their dad and he has a right to speak up, and they should respect that. If they are leaving their rooms messy then does that affect him? Not really (as long as they aren't breeding new life forms in there).

They sound like great kids. You are very lucky.

@randommess Funnily enough, part of our issues that sent us to counselling was that I wasn't always honest, I let my resentments with him simmer without being straight with him. I've now got to a point where I'll be more honest with him, and he doesn't like that either. I'm beginning to think I'll never be what he expects.

Is he running a borstal-sanctions?

Who the hell punishes a child for not eating all of their meals or not having enough fruit

His behaviors are not a parenting style. His behaviors are fucked up, him needing to be in control, bullying, and downright manipulative. Not a parenting style, but selfish and bordering abusive behaviors

@aloris Yes, I agree. He says that 'he's only asking for a few small things' as if it's just the tidy rooms, but to be honest it's a fairly constant drip drip nagging about table manners, things not left in the right place, bedtimes and waking times, revision techniques, career choices, how eating chocolate is causing their spots, having more showers, owning too many toys, buying pointless crap, not being grateful for what they have, etc.

I might well agree with mentioning any one of these things on occasion (except the spots one FFS) but it's just the continuous nature which grinds us all down.

I think he forgets that his end goal is that we should all have a nice life. It's as if this part doesn't matter as long as they leave home as models of success.

Hearing the overwhelming view that - even if his intentions are right, his methods are not - is giving me more resolve to make a change than I've ever felt before. I'm no longer nervous that I've just 'got it all wrong because I've never seen what good parenting looks like'. This many mumsnetters telling me that something is amiss is a tremendous support. Thanks all.

@aloris No, my parents were far from controlling - they let me do whatever I pleased and gave me very little guidance about life either (which caused me a lot of issues later). I try to give my girls guidance and boundaries that I didn't have, but the shouting and micromanagement are just so alien to me.

My cousin is quite a messy person and her husband is super organised. He doesn't mention it very often but the stress it causes him is huge. He can't understand how she can live like that. He's a nice guy and it's really very problematic for him. Please take that into consideration when you lay down the rules. After all they could always clean their bedroom when they clean the bathroom. I understand your updates have gathered apace in what he complains about. He needs to be more understanding to the fact they're teens, and they need to be understanding that he lives in the house as well.

The focus is all on him ‘he said, he wants’, eggshells, domineering, stonewalling, emotional abuse. Fuck that. The focus should be on the people you made, how is this environment beneficial to them? Are they having therapy yet? Do they not want to be away from the house as much as possible? As soon as they can they’ll be away, and your husband will reap what he sowed.

Yes, the oldest has frequently said she can't wait to be out of here, which made me amp up my efforts to change the way he behaves. He sort of bats away comments like that as if they're just standard teenage backchat, and she does bounce back to what seems like happiness when we're not arguing. I just thought that solving the problems here so we could stay as a 4 were preferable to giving up and putting them through the emotional and practical upheaval of a divorce. But maybe I'm just kidding myself.

Making them live with that man is giving up. From experience, they will blame you for making them live like that, in a hateful, controlled, tense house. They won’t thank you, and are open about the fact they can’t wait to get away.

‘Efforts to change the way he behaves’ ugh. UGH! Dreadful lesson to be teaching your kids on what women do for controlling males.

He acts like I'm batshit for considering splitting up over the way he behaves, like he's perfectly normal and I'm just a weak parent. I guess that's what they call gaslighting.

I'd be interested to know what the other relationship issues are/were.

I think he is controlling and abusive towards you as well as your daughters.

He has bullied you into believing that you're to blame for everything, he is right and you are wrong, but I think deep down your instincts are telling you something else, hence your confusion.

Counselling for yourself might help you to see things more clearly, decide what to do and get support while you're doing it. Don't bother attempting more counselling with him, it's not recommended with men like him. (Plus he doesn't like being challenged or taking responsibility, clearly.)

I think eventually you will need to LTB. But meanwhile get counselling if you can and do some reading.

www.healthline.com/health/signs-of-mental-abuse

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2268977-The-Abuser-Profiles

I hope you leave him, if not for your own sake then for your daughters'.

@AnotherEmma Thanks for that - sadly I definitely recognise a fair few of the behaviours listed in there. I'm going to head off and buy the book. Need to steel myself for what obviously needs to happen. I'm just so sad.

He acts like I'm batshit for considering splitting up over the way he behaves, like he's perfectly normal and I'm just a weak parent. I guess that's what they call gaslighting

yes it is.

YANBU OP. All the stuff you said about your teens is normal and they sound great. He sounds controlling to me and on his way to damaging his relationship with his children. I know separating is scary, but from what I've read if the good suggestions from other posters don't work, then it would be better for you and your children. Take care.

On the healthy eating issue, if they were skipping breakfast or lunch (but eating a great amount at dinner table) would that be something to sanction?

That sounds like a recipe for an eating disorder. Your daughters are at a critical point in their lives working out who they are and should be building up their self esteem. He seems determined to break them down.

There is this element that the harder you hold it all in at home, the more they explode when they're free. I presume he wants them to go to university? It's really easy to give your dc the idea that you're disappointed in them. My dad did that to me as a teenager. He held me to adult standards without giving me adult autonomy. It took a while to work through...

I’d go against the majority and say that there is a point in the middle of you and your DH that is balanced. You aren’t giving them any consequences ever. He wants too many consequences that aren’t workable. However you are both the parents, and they are only being parented your way. When he tries, you totally undermine him in front of the kids.

It sounds like it would be good to chat to him just you and him. What is going on between you? Are you happy together? It feels like he is separate from the rest of you and trying, in a very clumsy way to find his place in the family as the strict one or to his mind the strong one. I’m not saying he’s right, however he is being totally ignored. Only you know if there is merit in actually allowing him to lay down a couple of rules as a compromise.

I have occasionally told my kids that they won’t get a privilege like a phone for the day if they didn’t tidy their rooms. I think sometimes that’s OK! Because sometimes it gets out of hand!

@pastmybestbeforedate Yes, we both want them to go to university to be fair, but he's doing his best to dissuade our eldest from following her passion and doing Art Textiles as 'there's no money in it'. Admittedly he does come from a family of people who tried Art then had to retrain into other things to make money, but again - I can feel that the more he actively tells her it's futile, the more she's insisting on doing it. It's the wrong approach, in my opinion, but he doesn't listen to that.

Hey op. Just wanted to add I think your parenting sounds really good. I have 2 DC. They are incredible kids. They always get good school reports and we never have any trouble. They will put on washing, hang it out and do anything we ask of them. However they are not always tidy or clean. We do have to force younger dc to shower, empty her bins, pick up her clothes etc.

I have always taken the view that it a reflection of us not her. If I go into her room and ask her nicely to put her clothes away, she will always do it. If I say generically'put your clothes away today' then she won't. So, if I know what gets results then I consider it my job to teach her. She is only just 11. It's the same with a lot of things. She will do anything I ask if her if I'm kind and helpful and supportive. If we just bark orders at her (as her dad will occasionally do) then she doesn't really comprehend how to achieve the outcome.

I personally hate the order 'tidy your room'. I didn't know how to fulfill that order until I was in my 20's. If I say, please put your clothes away, please lift all rubbish off the floor, let's sort through your desk, let's empty your bin etc then she will do it.

All this is saying you cannot expect children to just 'know' what you want. Broad orders and punishments for not fulfilling them is not required. You obviously have a great relationship with your kids and seem to be doing it right. That's said, filthy bedrooms are grim. Teach them (even if it requires individual support from you) to clean their rooms in steps and it will serve them well in later life.

As for your DH, well it sounds tough. I won't say LTB because only you can decide if it's worth it. FWIW you sound like a lovely mum.

Shutting himself in his room for hours ffs!

Take his phone off him, he's a teenager himself...

You definitely would be better off without him. It must be awful constantly walking on egg shells with him at home. Your dc must dread coming home from school when he is on one. You parent the right way, don't sweat the small stuff, have a good relationship with your dc, if you don't get rid of him, first chance your dc get when they are old enough they will be out the door & not coming back.

[quote ReluctantNeatFreak]@AnotherEmma Thanks for that - sadly I definitely recognise a fair few of the behaviours listed in there. I'm going to head off and buy the book. Need to steel myself for what obviously needs to happen. I'm just so sad.[/quote]

YANBU
He is a bully and wants to 'control' everyone.