Is DH controlling or am I permissive?

[ReluctantNeatFreak]

Sorry for long post (I'm a long-time lurker also) but I'm at my wit's end - my DH and I are on the brink of separation over our difference in parenting styles. It feels like there is lots worth saving in the marriage and I don't think any of us (me, DH, DD14, DD13) would be happy with separation, but I can't take any more days like this.

Our teenage girls do have a tendency to have messy bedrooms, leave their stuff around the house, don't eat enough fruit/veg, often prioritise seeing their mates in spare time rather than choosing to get homework/chores done first, bicker with each other, sometimes act resentfully towards parents and need to be asked several times before they get stuff done.

However, they get good grades and reports from school, have been chosen as patrol leaders in scouts, do chores like cleaning bathrooms, doing laundry, dishwashers and mowing lawns before they get any pocket money, and are usually articulate, funny, positive-minded, passionate, thoughtful of others, and (I think) generally good kids.

I feel like the negative stuff above is typical teenage stuff, and I have a 'coaching' style where I try to get them to behave better through regular prompting and encouragement, praising good behaviour and verbal admonishment when they have really let themselves down, etc. I very rarely raise my voice or give out punishments (reserved for lies and deceit, utterly unkind behaviour etc).

My DH believes that behaviours like the messy room or not eating healthily should result in sanctions (sometimes arbitrary or instant) like losing their phone for a day, banned from TV, being grounded for a day, having monitoring and checklists put in place and often shouts when he sees things that are below par or if his instructions aren't explicitly followed. If the girls (or I) protest and an argument ensues, it almost always ends up in him locking himself in his room and refusing to speak to the three of us for hours.

He thinks I undermine him and never hold the children to account. I think he's trying to exert control over teenagers in a way which makes them want to rebel more. We have a day of rows or not speaking at least once a fortnight, and this has gone on for years. The children are stressed, miserable and confused on these days.

DH is a very well-intentioned and loving Dad, but this situation is now degenerating so that they hardly ever have cuddles or chats now without him sniping or being critical and the girls retreating moodily. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells amongst them.

I honestly can no longer tell if I'm right (and he is overly strict) or if he's right (and the children would grow up with terrible life-damaging habits if he didn't teach them these lessons) and need outside opinions please.

Please let me know - YABU (DH is being a great parent and I am too permissive), YANBU (DH is being overly controlling and needs to enjoy his teenagers company more before they leave home).

The problem is that you and your husband havent resolved the conflict and its overspilling into the woder family. His tantrumming is abhorrent but it spunds like youre also saying only your way works and you wont tolerate his way. Horrible toxic environment for you all. You absolitely need to have a serious talk, perhaps with counselling, because things cant go on like this.

I think you need marriage counseling. You won't sort this put by going to him saying 'mumsnet' think I'm right. Nit speaking for 2 weeks at a time isn't good communication regardless of who is right or wrong. I would really recommend going to counseling. I did it with mine when did actually separate for 3 months. That was 5 years ago and we have been together for 18 next month. For the record I think giving your teens leeway is a good thing, but you and DH need to learn to compromise and listen to each other.

It seems like some counselling or parenting coaching or family therapy would be a great idea. You seem totally reasonable and your kids sound fine

I think kids bedrooms can be as messy as they want, it's their space. As long as the family crockery doesn't get lost up there and it's not damp. And I think any kind of punishment around food is ridiculously unhealthy. Homework is dealt with by school, leave them to it.

It sounds like he's holding children to his own high standards, and tbh, I don't think most adults would live up to his standards. They sound like good kids.

YANBU! They're teenagers and you need to pick your battles.

Also - what kind of eejit parent sulks in their bedroom in front of their children? How is that teaching them anything about resolving conflict in a healthy way?! He's a grown man, not a teen himself, he needs to act like it.

Practical solutions - has he read any books about parenting teens? Would he consider family therapy? Couples therapy? A couple of sessions with a child psychologist/behavioural expert? A parenting course?

Thanks for all the replies. Yes, we could try counselling (although have had it for a different issue in the past and we both felt that they just couldn't see the detail enough to 'get us', it was all a bit generic).

Is there any level of messiness that you think would merit sanctions (think floor covered in clothes and towels, mounds of teenage bits and bobs all over the surfaces, dirty cups, room smells from not being aired, etc). Or is that also standard teenager?

I think both parenting styles probably fall within the range of reasonable. The issue for me would be constantly falling out in front of the kids, which must be very distressing and unsettling. I’d echo the suggestion of counselling to try and meet each other in the middle.

Ultimately splitting up isn’t going to change his parenting style and he could have them 50% of the time.

It's a standing joke in my family that it took DD less time to get a degree than it took me to clean her bedroom. From the age of about 12 until she went to university I never went into her bedroom.

If clothes were not put in the shared wash basket, they didn't get washed.

I did insist on shared areas being kept tidy though.

40 years later, we live together again, and the same rules apply. I never go into her and her partner bedroom, they don't come into mine. They can be as untidy as they like in their bedroom and sitting room, but shared areas have rules of tidiness.

As for the eating thing, way to give them eating issues. As long as they are eating enough, with vitamin supplements if needed, shut up.

Years ago I was talking to a friend who was Mum to two small children, and we got on to the subject of teenage years. She asked what my advice would be. I told her to pick her battles. Don't make everything a fight, just the ones that could be/are important.

Years later she told me it was the best advice she's recieved.

If the worst things your children do is occasionally eat junk food and be untidy, I'd say you were so winning.

YANBU

Punishing them for not eating enough fruit isn't exactly going to encourage them to eat more. Sounds way too controlling

He wouldn't read the books/courses because he's adamant that I'm the problem and he is the 'normal' parent. My own Mum is a bit toxic, and I've spent many years trying to eradicate some selfish/passive-aggressive tendencies of my own (and am naturally messy), so I think that colours the situation - he's determined they don't grow up like that. Sorry if that's a drip feed.

On the healthy eating issue, if they were skipping breakfast or lunch (but eating a great amount at dinner table) would that be something to sanction?

I was mostly leaning towards your side until I read your last post. I think a bit of messiness is one thing, leaving food and dirty plates in rooms is another. An occasional top left off the toothpaste should be overlooked, leaving dirty pants/sodden towels on the floor is another.

Can’t you agree with your husband (& then your daughters) to have some ground rules where horrible slovenly habits are stamped out but minor infractions are overlooked? Agree that communal areas are kept clean and tidy but you will overlook a bit of a floordrobe in their rooms?

The food issue I think is trickier as you don’t want to create food issues. If they are guzzling Coke daily and bags of haribo and fastfood then you should intervene. If their basic diet is healthy and they eat an occasional chocolate bar or burger then that is fine.

I typed too slowly, your penultimate posts!

They need to take dirty plates downstairs, dirty clothes in the hamper and clean clothes at least piled in a way they won't get more dirty. But if they don't you don't shout, you either restrict privileges (no food in room) or logical consequences like clothes not washed. And explain to them you require this basic standard.

He needs instant results (to be seen addressing the "problem") you see the long game, that's how it looks to me. It's one of those situations where you feel like it's him vs you instead of both of you vs the "problem" perhaps?

I'd offer advice if you hadn't said you've been trying to address it for years, but all I can say at the moment is that I hear you and totally sympathise.

My ex husband was like this. I nearly lost my 16 year old daughter because of it, as in she was going to move in with my parents. My kids have little contact with him now

@ReluctantNeatFreak

On the healthy eating issue, if they were skipping breakfast or lunch (but eating a great amount at dinner table) would that be something to sanction?

No of course not, they should be able to regulate their own food intake. You can’t punish them for not eating as you deem appropriate.

On the subject of what's reasonable re rooms, I have foster children and bio children and they all have to clean their rooms once a week on a Sunday. They are left to it the rest of the time (although not allowed to eat meals in room they can have snacks) and every Sunday they have a list for things they have to sort in their rooms. This actually came from social workers care plans and surprise visits! As part of every child we've had care plan is keeping their room tidy and we have to show social workers the rooms when they do visits. So all the kids do as I don't see why it should just be the FKs. It works pretty well and I think a good thing. Although can be be a battle depending on the child. Or the time of the month sometimes!

counselling for you two? I think its gone from being parenting style differences to this huge overwhelming THING. I think you, the grownups, need objective outside advice and to be supported to work it through.

Oh and the only sanction that really works with any of mine is screen time reduction!!

@ReluctantNeatFreak

On the healthy eating issue, if they were skipping breakfast or lunch (but eating a great amount at dinner table) would that be something to sanction?

No. They might not be hungry at lunch, but their main appetite is in the evening. Why would that be something to punish someone for?

My DH has a very small lunch but always eats masses for dinner. So we cook a big dinner. It's no biggie, his diet is healthy, and he has healthy BMI. I presume the dinner you cook is normal healthy food?

Plenty of healthy adults eat more or fewer than 3 meals a day. How you structure your intake is just personal choice.

Looking at other kids when I was at Uni, the most messed up ones were where there was very different parenting styles.

But it does depend on the people involved. I worked with a lovely lady whose H was ever more controlling of the kids. She toed the line for years and years, trying to mediate but eventually they split up but by then one of the kids was very poorly indeed with MH issues.

Instead of looking it from you as a couple perspective, have a check in with the kids and see they think. They are way old enough to notice what's going on. I remember my dysfunctional family at this age and the issues were very obvious to us.

I would never punish kids for a messy room, I'm not a big believer in sanctions and grounding and all that crap, all my kids seem ok. He is a bully, certainly not 'well intentioned and loving', and I certainly won't back up my partner purely to provide a united front

He’s an arse.

We don’t do sanctions in our house. Dd is 17. Her bedroom can be as messy as she likes. I never go in there. The only rule we do have is no food in the bedrooms. (That goes for all of us, we also have a Ds aged 9). So that eliminates the mould issue - if I notice cups are lacking I just tell her to go and get them. To be fair though she will do this straight away, if she was rude about it or whatever I guess maybe I might feel differently but I’ve literally never had a need to “sanction” her. We all mutually respect each other and accept that teens are learning and messy! I couldn’t be with your husband. Your dds won’t want anything to do with him when they’re older.

Sorry but bedrooms being messy is a pet hate they would have to have tidy rooms if they wanted to go out and not allowed out also till homework is done, if you got rid of the crap in the house they would probably eat healthier, you sound more like a friend then a parent and he over compensates for your lack of parenting