Is DH controlling or am I permissive?

[ReluctantNeatFreak]

Sorry for long post (I'm a long-time lurker also) but I'm at my wit's end - my DH and I are on the brink of separation over our difference in parenting styles. It feels like there is lots worth saving in the marriage and I don't think any of us (me, DH, DD14, DD13) would be happy with separation, but I can't take any more days like this.

Our teenage girls do have a tendency to have messy bedrooms, leave their stuff around the house, don't eat enough fruit/veg, often prioritise seeing their mates in spare time rather than choosing to get homework/chores done first, bicker with each other, sometimes act resentfully towards parents and need to be asked several times before they get stuff done.

However, they get good grades and reports from school, have been chosen as patrol leaders in scouts, do chores like cleaning bathrooms, doing laundry, dishwashers and mowing lawns before they get any pocket money, and are usually articulate, funny, positive-minded, passionate, thoughtful of others, and (I think) generally good kids.

I feel like the negative stuff above is typical teenage stuff, and I have a 'coaching' style where I try to get them to behave better through regular prompting and encouragement, praising good behaviour and verbal admonishment when they have really let themselves down, etc. I very rarely raise my voice or give out punishments (reserved for lies and deceit, utterly unkind behaviour etc).

My DH believes that behaviours like the messy room or not eating healthily should result in sanctions (sometimes arbitrary or instant) like losing their phone for a day, banned from TV, being grounded for a day, having monitoring and checklists put in place and often shouts when he sees things that are below par or if his instructions aren't explicitly followed. If the girls (or I) protest and an argument ensues, it almost always ends up in him locking himself in his room and refusing to speak to the three of us for hours.

He thinks I undermine him and never hold the children to account. I think he's trying to exert control over teenagers in a way which makes them want to rebel more. We have a day of rows or not speaking at least once a fortnight, and this has gone on for years. The children are stressed, miserable and confused on these days.

DH is a very well-intentioned and loving Dad, but this situation is now degenerating so that they hardly ever have cuddles or chats now without him sniping or being critical and the girls retreating moodily. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells amongst them.

I honestly can no longer tell if I'm right (and he is overly strict) or if he's right (and the children would grow up with terrible life-damaging habits if he didn't teach them these lessons) and need outside opinions please.

Please let me know - YABU (DH is being a great parent and I am too permissive), YANBU (DH is being overly controlling and needs to enjoy his teenagers company more before they leave home).

From his perspective, it must be draining having to be the ‘no-fun’ parent all the time.

I don’t think you and your other half should split over this as you aren’t the first people to find teenagers trying and perhaps you need to have a calm convo when the girls are out to align and agree on what is acceptable. Get on the same team xxx

I wouldn't want to get on his team

If your children are contributing to household chores (lawn mowing/cleaning bathrooms etc) then you are already several steps ahead of many of us.

As others have said, you need to pick your battles with teenagers. Good grades, good reports , doing jobs , hobbies with responsibilities are all really positive, and you won’t want to undo that.

You do need to get on the same page as your husband and then agreeing a way forward with the teens. We say no eating upstairs, and they should be bringing cups down, but I’d leave them to the messy bedrooms (they clean their own).

In our house everyone has their own towels kept in their bedroom, so if they aren’t hung up then the next shower ends with a wet towel.

For me this is all about modelling. And right now you and your DH are not modelling how to deal with conflict healthily. Days of not speaking, passive aggression, sulking, the silent treatment - it is not healthy. You should be able to have family discussions and it not come to that. It's OK to disagree, healthily - when it's not, it's a problem.

And more on the modelling, does he eat fruit/veg? Keep personal space tidy? Do all his chores before he has fun? If not, why does he expect his daughters to?

Also, arbitrary and on-the-spot sanctions are a big no-no. I always feel that you need warnings for consequences to give the child a chance to meet the demand. Otherwise you are doling out punishment for the sake of it.

It does to have to lead to a separation you need to sit down as a family and talk and set out rules being a friend to your child and letting them do what they want is not the way to parent they need rules boundaries and structure, then need to learn to clean up after themselves you you and your dh need to be on the same page your teens should not be going anywhere until school work is done all dirty dishes in rooms are disgusting and I would stop them eating in their rooms until they can show they can bring stuff down and wash it I am on youth side on that however the eating is a none issues unless they are living off crap all day

Does not

Thanks all - I am reading and weighing every reply and following links/tips.

I think we must have spent at least a month's worth of time in total trying to talk it about it TBH. Each 'sulk' ends in a 2 or 3 hour conversation (with varying levels of anger/honestly trying to find compromise) which culminates largely in me promising to try to support him more once he's convinced me how perfectly reasonable he's being to expect xyz. Occasionally he accepts he overreacted but that's rare.

There have been multiple 'brink of separation' moments which we tend to pull back from for the sake of not disrupting the children's lives.

If I'm honest, I fear the logistics of living on my own. DH handles all the DIY, cars, etc and I have some social anxiety. I've never lived on my own (we got together when we were in first year uni, together 27 years). I think that's why I always pull back from the 'nuclear option'. I'm not totally useless, but it requires a big learning curve when I'm least emotional ready for it.

It would be good to hear if it feels easier in the other side...

We got joint counseling for DH and I for parenting. CBT- might this help?

In answer to some posts, he does hold himself to the same standards, has awesome willpower to 'do the right thing'. When he does choose to prioritise relaxation over tidying his mess or doing chores, he'll say that's his right given that he works 50 hours a week etc, which I get. The girls have a lot more free time.

I have always struggled to measure up TBH, and waiver between liking the idea of the freedom to finally be my rather dysfunctional and imperfect self versus worrying that I'll be a complete flake without him to help me.

Our teenage girls do have a tendency to have messy bedrooms, leave their stuff around the house, don't eat enough fruit/veg, often prioritise seeing their mates in spare time rather than choosing to get homework/chores done first, bicker with each other, sometimes act resentfully towards parents and need to be asked several times before they get stuff done.

Totally Totally normal

they get good grades and reports from school, have been chosen as patrol leaders in scouts, do chores like cleaning bathrooms, doing laundry, dishwashers and mowing lawns before they get any pocket money, and are usually articulate, funny, positive-minded, passionate, thoughtful of others, and (I think) generally good kids.

They sound like great kids, no body is perfect but what you've described in the downsides is totally normal

My DH believes that behaviours like the messy room or not eating healthily should result in sanctions (sometimes arbitrary or instant) like losing their phone for a day, banned from TV, being grounded for a day, having monitoring and checklists put in place and often shouts when he sees things that are below par or if his instructions aren't explicitly followed. If the girls (or I) protest and an argument ensues, it almost always ends up in him locking himself in his room and refusing to speak to the three of us for hours.

He really needs to chill out, he's trying to micro manage and control. I think it's reasonable to expect them to take their stuff to their Room and not leave it around the house but other than that he's being a petulant child. Not nice for the kids to see him sulking for hours on end.

He should be proud of their good grades, they sound like great kids

OP,
You will be fine.

Your daughters needs trump yours IMO.

He sounds like the type of father they will avoid as adults.

Silence/tantrums/controlling?

It's not good.

Start looking at the logistics.

Tried asking about counselling earlier - flat out no from him ("because they always take your side")

He says he might start staying a few nights a week in hotel near work 'so we can all have a nicer time when he's not here'.

I'd stand up to him, tell him the girls are normal and you and they are not going to accept his behaviour any more, just try and live your life, let him work out his moods for himself

You sound really worn down OP. It seems like it's about far more than the disagreements over parenting. Although that could be the focus, it doesn't seem like solving that would solve the bigger problems for you?

It sounds like your self-esteem has really taken a hit. It's hard to make good choices for yourself when that is the case. Please be kind to yourself - it sounds like you do a fab job with your girls.

You say you don't want to live alone, but you'll have your girls.
Imagine if they have children and he's like it with them ? Another 20 years of treading on eggshells.

I’m the same with mess. I have teens the same ages as yours. I don’t punish them but their rooms have to be tidy before they can go out. The other stuff I think he’s too strict.

Thanks for all the kind words reassuring me that my girls are doing well, everyone and @biffbaff I do feel rather worn down after years or trying to behave in the 'right ways'.

Yes, my username name says it all and was created years ago.

I need to be brave and make a move.

His complaints are all valid, I would not stand for mess around the house, kids/teenagers do need to learn the benefits of a healthy diet, I could not tolerate disrespectful attitude towards parents either. But he is going about it the wrong way and creating a battle. You have sided with them and turned it into a you-three versus him situation.
You are both parents, so it's not what you want or what he wants, there needs to be compromise on what you can both agree as a parenting style.
What sort of adults do you want your kids to grow into? Ones who don't eat healthily, live in messy homes, disrespect others? Find a compromise and lead by example.

I wonder it you are feeling anxious about managing alone because you have become used to being controlled.

The things you are worried about are things you can learn and will be able to cope with.

Can you live with your dds internalising a sense of not being good enough? Or with them learning that their role is to do as they are told by their partner to avoid a many hour sulk?

A couple of thoughts

If he really wants to save the marriage, then you have some power…but wield it carefully.

Can he write a list of the five things about raising the kids that are most important to him…teaching them to clean up after themselves should hopefully not make this list, it should include things like knowing how to learn, resilience, how to love someone deeply etc etc
Then ask him to write a list of five things around the house that the kids and you do that drive him batshit…he is only allowed his top five

You do the same (but include what he and the kids do that drives you batshit…and include the not talking problems through on your list)

Compare lists and discuss. Hopefully there is some commonality.

Agree a list of 5 joint batshit items to prioritize this month for everyone in the family to work on. If there are chores, be very specific so no one can wriggle out or add extra and include deadlines.
Choose sanctions for infringements and I strongly suggest you use natural consequences as a style for the sanctions. Adults get sanctions as well as kids.

Have a family meeting and talk it through with the teens, WRITE IT DOWN and post the list on the fridge. Review after a week and adjust anything that isnt working how you planned it to.

If you are really brave, bring the teens in on the list of things that they want to grow up knowing/being able to do and things that drive them batshit that you and DH do.

You both might get a wake up call

Oh and the list of five things that you and DH think are most important about raising your kids… use that when you are deciding your family top five things to work in and consequences for infringements.

So if it is very important for you to raise teens that know how to take personal responsibility, then look at and chores you allocate them and think are these chores helping them develop personal responsibility, the same for the consequences, is this just a random punishment to make them suffer or is it a natural consequence that means they will learn and then want to do the chore properly next time.

Sorry for the essay

If DH cant engage in compromise…you have your answer

@seatoski Thanks, that feels like the kind of logical process we might both be able to get on board with if we can get ourselves out of this latest bout of unhelpful nastiness towards each other. I will bear it in mind. For tonight, I'm in the spare room...

He's obviously wanting you to say 'Oh no please don't go to stay in a hotel,' but to be honest it probably wouldn't be a bad thing as an inbetween step so you could see how you manage alone, see if the girls do still do their chores but are happier/more relaxed without him there, or if they just take the mick because they see you as the 'easy' parent.

I hate the word 'sanctions,' it sounds so cold and authoritative, like he's the head guard and the rest of you are prisoners or low level employees! Particularly when coupled with 'monitoring' and 'checklists!' With teens I think 'consequences' work better than 'sanctions', so if they leave their clothes are on the floor = they look scruffy when they want to look nice. If they don't eat breakfast = they get hungry. If they prioritise socialising over homework= they get told off in school. If they leave their stuff lying around the rest of the house just chuck it all in one of those cheap basket things you get = if it gets broken/they can't find what they're looking for it's a natural consequence. Don't do their chores=don't get pocket money. Rude to you=explain people don't do favours to those who are rude to them so don't ask you for money/lifts. etc.

I think 'natural' consequences are better to shape someone to grow into a healthy adult, which is when you learn if you chuck your stuff on the floor you're the one who has to iron it, if your house is a mess you have to clean it, if you're late for work you get in trouble, etc. You said your DH thinks 'the children would grow up with terrible life-damaging habits if he didn't teach them these lessons' but would they? Most children/teens are messy, but most adults grow up to have pretty tidy homes. Even those whose houses aren't spotless, 99% of people manage to keep their houses to a 'clean enough' standard of living. Same with healthy eating, most teenagers eat at least some crap but tend to naturally eat better as they grow up. I don't think anyone ever failed as a person because they had a messy bedroom as a teenager.
However when you think of the lessons your DH is teaching them - other people can police their food intake. They will be rewarded for choosing 'healthy options' and punished for choosing 'unhealthy' ones. They should pander to a man even if they disagree with him on something, and if not, then locking yourself into a room and refusing to speak to someone is a normal and good way of reacting to conflict. People who don't do what someone in a position of authority tells them according to a very specific checklist deserve sanctions and punishments, their property being removed from them, etc....

If his version of ‘compromise’ is staying in a hotel mid-week, I think you are stuffed. This isn’t about whether the kids should be ‘better’, it’s about the fact that he can’t bear to be around you all and not 100% in control. You can’t fix that, and I’m not sure he cares enough to fix it.

I do wonder if there is a relationship long dynamic that he believes his way is right and you have often gone along with it to avoid the sulking/ignoring and it's now the DC are older you aren't as willing to go now to his "superiority"

@thevassal - So useful to see that list of 'natural consequences'. That's pretty much my approach - don't punish but also don't rush in to fix it so they learn not to do it again.

I tried to explain this to him earlier after reading that phrase from an earlier poster (not telling him it came from Mumsnet!) and his response was - "Yes, natural consequences of not tidying your room is having your phone confiscated and people being upset with you." I don't think he gets it.