Is DH controlling or am I permissive?

[ReluctantNeatFreak]

Sorry for long post (I'm a long-time lurker also) but I'm at my wit's end - my DH and I are on the brink of separation over our difference in parenting styles. It feels like there is lots worth saving in the marriage and I don't think any of us (me, DH, DD14, DD13) would be happy with separation, but I can't take any more days like this.

Our teenage girls do have a tendency to have messy bedrooms, leave their stuff around the house, don't eat enough fruit/veg, often prioritise seeing their mates in spare time rather than choosing to get homework/chores done first, bicker with each other, sometimes act resentfully towards parents and need to be asked several times before they get stuff done.

However, they get good grades and reports from school, have been chosen as patrol leaders in scouts, do chores like cleaning bathrooms, doing laundry, dishwashers and mowing lawns before they get any pocket money, and are usually articulate, funny, positive-minded, passionate, thoughtful of others, and (I think) generally good kids.

I feel like the negative stuff above is typical teenage stuff, and I have a 'coaching' style where I try to get them to behave better through regular prompting and encouragement, praising good behaviour and verbal admonishment when they have really let themselves down, etc. I very rarely raise my voice or give out punishments (reserved for lies and deceit, utterly unkind behaviour etc).

My DH believes that behaviours like the messy room or not eating healthily should result in sanctions (sometimes arbitrary or instant) like losing their phone for a day, banned from TV, being grounded for a day, having monitoring and checklists put in place and often shouts when he sees things that are below par or if his instructions aren't explicitly followed. If the girls (or I) protest and an argument ensues, it almost always ends up in him locking himself in his room and refusing to speak to the three of us for hours.

He thinks I undermine him and never hold the children to account. I think he's trying to exert control over teenagers in a way which makes them want to rebel more. We have a day of rows or not speaking at least once a fortnight, and this has gone on for years. The children are stressed, miserable and confused on these days.

DH is a very well-intentioned and loving Dad, but this situation is now degenerating so that they hardly ever have cuddles or chats now without him sniping or being critical and the girls retreating moodily. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells amongst them.

I honestly can no longer tell if I'm right (and he is overly strict) or if he's right (and the children would grow up with terrible life-damaging habits if he didn't teach them these lessons) and need outside opinions please.

Please let me know - YABU (DH is being a great parent and I am too permissive), YANBU (DH is being overly controlling and needs to enjoy his teenagers company more before they leave home).

ReluctantNeatFreak

Tried asking about counselling earlier - flat out no from him ("because they always take your side")

I think this is quite telling, as in, sounds like he's not open to any views other than his own.

He says he might start staying a few nights a week in hotel near work 'so we can all have a nicer time when he's not here'. And this. So he's possibly computed he's the one out of step and his solution is not to work through things but absent himself in a fit of pique.

You can tell he is very controlling because his answer to anything he doesn't like is to punish it. He doesn't want to work with it or on it and he doesn't care about anyone else's views, he would just punish and punish and punish until their spirit was broken and they submitted to what he wanted.

He is emotionally extremely immature. Locking yourself in a bathroom or not speaking are things I might expect from a child who hasn't learnt how to deal with things. He also obviously has extremely poor communication skills. He may once have been a loving and well intentioned dad (I'm guessing when the girls were young and much easier to control) but now he's a controlling abusive bully. You walk around on eggshells - that is the behaviour of someone in an emotionally abusive relationship. The girls are stressed miserable and confused when he refuses to talk to you - I'm not surprised this is not how a relationship should be, there should be communication, compromise, and working together towards resolution.

OMG OP! I haven't read all of the replies, but bloody hell - your DH sounds like such a controlling, nit-picking, nagging kill joy. What exactly is he trying to achieve by this behaviour? Sounds to me like he's trying to crush your DD's personalities and bend their behaviour to his will. He's literally trying to break your girls! This is so, so, so not normal and not okay.

Your DD's sound like they're great kids. Teens are messy, moody, hormonal etc - but you simply can't police what a teen eats and what their personal space is like and what they chose to study to this insane extent. Seriously, he's going to destroy his relationship with them and they'll end up with emotional problems after years of being stuck with a hyper-critical, controlling DF. It's sad.

I'm sure other have given much more helpful, insightful replies, but I just wanted to say you and your girls deserve much better than this. You deserve a relaxed, happy home. I separated from my fun-sucking Dementor of an ex-husband last Summer and I can heartily recommend it! He wasn't controlling or bossy, just bit of a boring misery who brought me down. DC is happy - has alternate weekends with DF but not bothered about him moving out (which speaks volumes to their relationship) and they enjoy the more relaxed, lighter atmosphere at home.

Honestly, don't be afraid of being on your own. Practical skills can be learnt or help sought. You're a big girl and you can handle anything - I guarantee that dealing with day to day life stuff, like cars and plumbing and admin, will be less challenging and emotionally exhausting than dealing with his constant impossible demands. Also, I hadn't realized what a number living with an unsuitable DH had done on my self esteem/self confidence, until he moved out and I felt free to spread my wings and really feel like my authentic self again. It's such a relief, like a weight lifted I wasn't conscious of carrying. Wonderful, caring, kind new man has perked me up a great deal as well - just saying, there's much more to life than what you have now. So don't be frightened.

He does sound very dismissive and controlling.

He has utterly dismissed the idea of separating because of his parenting as preposterous.

Thing is, he doesn't get to control THAT.
YOU can end the marriage without his agreement.

OP, from what you have written Inhave no doubt whatsoever that your daughter's will have a very low tolerance and contact with him goi g forward unless he dramatically changes.
If you separate I could well see them point blank refusing to spend time with him.

I wouldn't blame them.
Authoritarian parenting as you pass through your teens is very damaging.

Not boundaries and insisting on respect, which is reasonable but a domineering man who causes endless stress in the home and in your husbands case has a massive tantrum sulk too.

They will be delighted to see the back of him, which is really sad, but understandable.

@ReluctantNeatFreak

Thanks for all the replies. Yes, we could try counselling (although have had it for a different issue in the past and we both felt that they just couldn't see the detail enough to 'get us', it was all a bit generic).

Is there any level of messiness that you think would merit sanctions (think floor covered in clothes and towels, mounds of teenage bits and bobs all over the surfaces, dirty cups, room smells from not being aired, etc). Or is that also standard teenager?

My DD is 12 so a tad younger but I do think it's a problem to have old cups and plates, clothes on floor and stuff literally everywhere so you can't clean.

My dd would be like this if I let her. As it is I go in once a day and just say you can't leave dirty crockery and clothes like this. You can't leave your headphones on the floor where they so get trodden on. Let's sort it. She sorts most of it and I help with some of it.

If she complains that seed in the middle of sth I let her tell me what time she would like help with it and we do it then.

My girl is bright and willing but she is too young yet to fully manage keeping her room properly tidy without prompts. She just doesn't notice it.

I think some of the day in day or treating of it is starting to sink in as she does now try to organise Things a bit more.

I think approaching it with sanctions would really be like using an axe to crack a nut as what she needs is support really.

At your dd’s age, I had stopped a long time ago to going every day and tidy up (with it for) my dcs.

I don’t think my dcs are particularly amazing or tidy (they’re not). But they need to learn to be independent and look after themselves.
Going in every day is what I did when they were 6yo.
At some point, they need to learn that some behaviour has natural consequences I think.

Thanks all. @NottheMrMenAgain - thanks, it's good to hear what it's like on the other side. Fun-sucking dementor nails it!

I've spent a lot of today (when not struggling through work meetings) worrying about throwing out the baby with the bathwater. DH is such a Jekyll and Hyde - he can be so fun, spontaneous, kind, wise, and just comfortingly normal - but then flips into this joy-destroying ball of irritability and temper.

I've spoken to him a bit today, trying to stick to raising the key 2 or 3 issues, but as usual, he soon has me pondering if it's actually all my fault. i.e. he's forced to do something drastic because of . This weekend it was because I 'undermined him' on a phone sanction for a long-standing messy room (I actually followed through on it, but admittedly without much enthusiasm as it was so arbitrary and at a moment when I was about to set off on a long car journey with her). And also because I expressed disappointment that a home project would not be completed this weekend because I had misunderstood how big it was (which made him feel I was pressuring him). He says these are examples of my ongoing and unresolved selfishness.

I get that I can be a bit immature/impatient in the moment sometimes (let's say once or twice a week) but usually apologise for it soon after and try to explain what triggered it. He says it's like having a third child. I honestly don't know whether I'm an unreasonable and immature arsehole. Surely people generally have ups and downs in mood and behaviour that they then talk about/apologise for and move on from without a relationship-damaging row?

@ReluctantNeatFreak there comes a point though where in reading all of that does it actually matter who is at fault because it all sounds so toxic and an unpleasant environment to be in. A relationship where one person believes that their unpleasant and drastic behaviour is the others fault is over. If he believes that it is due to your ongoing selfishness how on earth can you stay.

My point is that it is over either way

@ReluctantNeatFreak

Thanks all. *@NottheMrMenAgain* - thanks, it's good to hear what it's like on the other side. Fun-sucking dementor nails it!

I've spent a lot of today (when not struggling through work meetings) worrying about throwing out the baby with the bathwater. DH is such a Jekyll and Hyde - he can be so fun, spontaneous, kind, wise, and just comfortingly normal - but then flips into this joy-destroying ball of irritability and temper.

I've spoken to him a bit today, trying to stick to raising the key 2 or 3 issues, but as usual, he soon has me pondering if it's actually all my fault. i.e. he's forced to do something drastic because of . This weekend it was because I 'undermined him' on a phone sanction for a long-standing messy room (I actually followed through on it, but admittedly without much enthusiasm as it was so arbitrary and at a moment when I was about to set off on a long car journey with her). And also because I expressed disappointment that a home project would not be completed this weekend because I had misunderstood how big it was (which made him feel I was pressuring him). He says these are examples of my ongoing and unresolved selfishness.

I get that I can be a bit immature/impatient in the moment sometimes (let's say once or twice a week) but usually apologise for it soon after and try to explain what triggered it. He says it's like having a third child. I honestly don't know whether I'm an unreasonable and immature arsehole. Surely people generally have ups and downs in mood and behaviour that they then talk about/apologise for and move on from without a relationship-damaging row?

It sounds like he's trying to run the household as a business place with him as the boss, rather than being a flexible boss, he's more like rimmers style of management when dealing with lister from red dwarf

Fair point...

So the children are awful and so are you OP.

Well he can obviously run rings around you in a discussion and have you doubting yourself easily.

Bottom line is you have stressed, anxious, unhappy children that are relishing the thought of getting away from home and you understand why because the atmosphere is so tense.

You do understand this.

This is the how YOUR children feel living with your Jekyll and Hyde husband.

He may talk you into believing you too are wrong but he certainly won't be able to do this with those girls.

Speaking as a mother of 3 currently sitting in a very messy room and happily ploughing through a 100g bag of Butterkist- Yanbu. He sounds controlling and neurotic, his priorities are in the wrong place. Locking himself in a room regularly and not speaking to you 1 day out of 14? That is infinitely more ruinous to your daughters well being than a messy room or bag of Haribo. They will resent him if he carries on like this.

Mine is like this. He has removed everything fun from DS room (electronics, etc) and left him with basically just his bed and a chest of drawers so he has nothing to make untidy now.

Hes accused you of being a child after the way he reacts to disagreements by locking himself in a room-pathetic

He undermines you when he makes unilateral decisions about punishments so it's not reasonable of him to throw that accusation at you.

Christ what a total palaver

You're turning yourself inside out here in your desperation to understand this man - and I get that

But honestly, what you describe with your teenagers is worthy of a telling off maybe at most. Or turning up in their bedrooms with a roll of bin bags if they're a tip and saying 'right you two, crack on with a spot of tidying.' Or shouting up for them to bring down dishes.

It's all just something and nothing. Pull them up when they need it and that should be that

He's making all of your lives a misery with his nagging, moping, sulking and blaming.

If I was you, I'd act now. Your kids are still young enough to have years at home where they're not treated badly by their father. Leave it much longer and they'll be looking to leave home and you'll be left with this big baby

@FluffyT why on earth have you stood by and allowed that?

I honestly despair sometimes of how some parents allow their kids to be treated

To be honest I think your kids will breathe a massive sigh of relief if you divorce and they no longer have to live with him and have a miserable home life. Imagine how happy you will all be when home is a relaxing peaceful place and no one is telling you all off.

"I've spoken to him a bit today, trying to stick to raising the key 2 or 3 issues, but as usual, he soon has me pondering if it's actually all my fault. i.e. he's forced to do something drastic because of . "

This is a bit of a red flag.

"He acts like I'm batshit for considering splitting up over the way he behaves, like he's perfectly normal and I'm just a weak parent."

This is also a red flag. This is very dismissive of your personhood.

Have you started the Lundy Bancroft?

Not to diverge too much from the point, but if he unilaterally administers punishments that place a burden on you (such as withdrawing phone privileges right before a long trip), then it is not actually reasonable for him to accuse you of undermining him. You would only be undermining him if you had previously agreed to the punishments in a non-coerced way. His browbeating you into administering punishments is not free-will agreement.

Ooh, I see Minezatea already said this. I agree with her!

Before you do anything substantive, you do need to tweak some of the discipline issues slightly.

1. Food left in their bedrooms is a problem because that can lead to vermin which can cause maintenance and hygiene issues in your home. That is something that affects you and your husband, as well as possibly the girls' health, and it does need to be remediated. If there is going to be withdrawing of phones, this is the time to do it. But another way is to just gently teach them how to clean their rooms by some regular training and supervision.

1. Some of the other issues are just normal teen stuff. It's normal (although frustrating) for young-to-mid teens to shower inadequately. They'll naturally improve with time, but not before they annoy you a lot. You can and should keep reminding them, and possibly put a small consequence in place, but it's not something to raise the roof over. I think you said they are girls, so this is something he should stay out of. You work with them on hygeine as a mom-daughter thing. Food schedules and too much junk food are similar, though not as gendered. I can't imagine why anyone would tell their child that chocolate is causing their acne. Girls often use chocolate to alleviate feelings of depression and low self-esteem. Acne is only partially helped by improved diet, so harping on it is only going to cause increased chocolate consumption without (likely) improving their acne! Jekyll and Hyde routine by your dh will also cause low self-esteem and is therefore counter-productive.

1. His wanting the common areas tidy is reasonable so if you are going to show good faith then getting them to tidy up after themselves in the common areas is a good place to start.

1. I suggest you get counseling for yourself (alone) to decide a path forward for yourself.

The more you write, the worse he sounds, why should you support every single parenting decision he makes? He's a knob jockey

[quote RolyPolyBatFace]@FluffyT why on earth have you stood by and allowed that?

I honestly despair sometimes of how some parents allow their kids to be treated [/quote]
I know. I have tried but if I speak up it ends up making things worse.

Having you tried sitting all together (with pizza maybe) and discussing some house rules? Let them have a say in what is fair and what is not?
If you’re siding with your Dh even though you don’t agree with him then what is that teaching your kids?

All very useful responses and helping me to see reality, thanks all.

@FluffyT - yep, been there. Luckily my DD filled it back up with her own wonderful bits of childlike nonsense over the years. The dramatic interventions are always short-lived.

Yes, we've tried family manifestos, agreed rules with girls, different rewards etc - all bring a short term improvement but settle back into the usual pattern after a few weeks.

@ReluctantNeatFreak

Thanks all. *@NottheMrMenAgain* - thanks, it's good to hear what it's like on the other side. Fun-sucking dementor nails it!

I've spent a lot of today (when not struggling through work meetings) worrying about throwing out the baby with the bathwater. DH is such a Jekyll and Hyde - he can be so fun, spontaneous, kind, wise, and just comfortingly normal - but then flips into this joy-destroying ball of irritability and temper.

I've spoken to him a bit today, trying to stick to raising the key 2 or 3 issues, but as usual, he soon has me pondering if it's actually all my fault. i.e. he's forced to do something drastic because of . This weekend it was because I 'undermined him' on a phone sanction for a long-standing messy room (I actually followed through on it, but admittedly without much enthusiasm as it was so arbitrary and at a moment when I was about to set off on a long car journey with her). And also because I expressed disappointment that a home project would not be completed this weekend because I had misunderstood how big it was (which made him feel I was pressuring him). He says these are examples of my ongoing and unresolved selfishness.

I get that I can be a bit immature/impatient in the moment sometimes (let's say once or twice a week) but usually apologise for it soon after and try to explain what triggered it. He says it's like having a third child. I honestly don't know whether I'm an unreasonable and immature arsehole. Surely people generally have ups and downs in mood and behaviour that they then talk about/apologise for and move on from without a relationship-damaging row?

No abuser is abusive all the time. You'd never fall for them, commit to them (marriage, mortgage, children) and stay with them if they were. Of course they have their good points, you wouldn't tolerate the shit otherwise. Look up the cycle of abuse. And remember, the bad times ruin the good times in the end. An oft-quoted phrase on here "the only acceptable level of abuse is none".

His response when you raise issues is a classic abuser tactic: DARVO, deny, attack and reverse victim and offender.

Read Lundy Bancroft and do get some therapy if you can. It will help you see and think more clearly. Eventually you will get less confused by his very predictable responses and attempts to turn everything around against you.

@FluffyT

Mine is like this. He has removed everything fun from DS room (electronics, etc) and left him with basically just his bed and a chest of drawers so he has nothing to make untidy now.

Why would younallow that?

Does your son really deserve to be terrorised like that?

I like a tidy house and I know the mess can be annoying, but really?