Is DH controlling or am I permissive?

[ReluctantNeatFreak]

Sorry for long post (I'm a long-time lurker also) but I'm at my wit's end - my DH and I are on the brink of separation over our difference in parenting styles. It feels like there is lots worth saving in the marriage and I don't think any of us (me, DH, DD14, DD13) would be happy with separation, but I can't take any more days like this.

Our teenage girls do have a tendency to have messy bedrooms, leave their stuff around the house, don't eat enough fruit/veg, often prioritise seeing their mates in spare time rather than choosing to get homework/chores done first, bicker with each other, sometimes act resentfully towards parents and need to be asked several times before they get stuff done.

However, they get good grades and reports from school, have been chosen as patrol leaders in scouts, do chores like cleaning bathrooms, doing laundry, dishwashers and mowing lawns before they get any pocket money, and are usually articulate, funny, positive-minded, passionate, thoughtful of others, and (I think) generally good kids.

I feel like the negative stuff above is typical teenage stuff, and I have a 'coaching' style where I try to get them to behave better through regular prompting and encouragement, praising good behaviour and verbal admonishment when they have really let themselves down, etc. I very rarely raise my voice or give out punishments (reserved for lies and deceit, utterly unkind behaviour etc).

My DH believes that behaviours like the messy room or not eating healthily should result in sanctions (sometimes arbitrary or instant) like losing their phone for a day, banned from TV, being grounded for a day, having monitoring and checklists put in place and often shouts when he sees things that are below par or if his instructions aren't explicitly followed. If the girls (or I) protest and an argument ensues, it almost always ends up in him locking himself in his room and refusing to speak to the three of us for hours.

He thinks I undermine him and never hold the children to account. I think he's trying to exert control over teenagers in a way which makes them want to rebel more. We have a day of rows or not speaking at least once a fortnight, and this has gone on for years. The children are stressed, miserable and confused on these days.

DH is a very well-intentioned and loving Dad, but this situation is now degenerating so that they hardly ever have cuddles or chats now without him sniping or being critical and the girls retreating moodily. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells amongst them.

I honestly can no longer tell if I'm right (and he is overly strict) or if he's right (and the children would grow up with terrible life-damaging habits if he didn't teach them these lessons) and need outside opinions please.

Please let me know - YABU (DH is being a great parent and I am too permissive), YANBU (DH is being overly controlling and needs to enjoy his teenagers company more before they leave home).

The big problem is arbitrary rules that are sometimes enforced wi the severe sanctions and sometimes not.

If all if you wrote a list of house rules & agreed sanctions for breaking them, then things would be fair & the teens would learn to work within the rules.

It is the uncertainty of not knowing when a punishment will come and the feeling of walking on eggshells that is v bad for all of you.

Turning food into a battleground for no good reason is pretty much a guaranteed way to spark disordered eating.

Pretending to eat when they are required to. Or forcing it down until they feel sick. Not eating when they are genuinely hungry in order to avoid sanctions. It's so wrong.

I think there is a difference between a messy room and a disgustingly unhygienic room. Imagine if one of your DDs needed an ambulance and the paramedics had to get to their beds or if there was a fire and they had to navigate that floor in the dark inhaling smoke. Yes these things are rare but they do happen. My sister had to have a GP come out in the middle of the night, she was paralysed with pain in bed, luckily the floor was completely clear.

I shared a room with my sister so we were always tidy as our mess impacted the other person. Your DDs are making a mess elsewhere in the house and this impacts your Dh. Imagine if this was the other way round, you would feel that your wishes are being ignored and the 3 of them are ganging up on you. It is important to your Dh and none of you are taking notice of this.

Some people can live in very messy environments, I wonder what your house was like before you had children. Not all teens have mould infested bedrooms and yes I have teens.

Maybe read “book I wish my parents read” as this seems about relationships and communication, as PP have said, not about right or wrong - both just at different ends of a spectrum and need to find a middle ground

Sit down and agree family rules and what the consequences are for breaking the rules. Tell dh the girls need to have their day and he needs to listen.

This is such a relief to read outside opinions (of all varieties) - thank you all. It's not something I discuss with family or friends much as I don't want to be disloyal to DH or have others try to intervene. But it's very hard to see how others live (behind the Facebook version of events), and DH really had me convinced that I was ridiculously permissive. It's heart-wrenching, because the good times are really good (although sometimes end abruptly when someone does something 'wrong') but the bad times are soul-destroying.

Yanbu

Viewfromthwsteeple, anyone like that is not really cut put to be a parent, we can't have kids and expect 100% representations of our values. Life, family and kids are messy and imperfect

@ReluctantNeatFreak

On the healthy eating issue, if they were skipping breakfast or lunch (but eating a great amount at dinner table) would that be something to sanction?

Sanction? God no.

This would make me very worried that they are developing disordered eating instead.

So rules I would think of would be

1. No leaving stuff lying about the house. If it is dumped then a consequence.

1. Homework is done before socialising- this would be non negotiable for me and they would lose phone for a day.

1. Agree chores and what days they are done. If not completed by end of that day then no pocket money or reduced by whatever they haven't done.

1. Back chat or having to ask lots of times is just rude and yep that would have consequences.

We have our family rules. Everyone knows the consequences and rewards. Saves on the shouting

@Hankunamatata,, I think the issue is that they are not agreeing on the rules, let alone the consequences.

My kids are young but until very recently I was a secondary teacher.

Are homework and chores been not being done or just not to your/his time scale?

I wouldn’t be happy with food and plates in rooms. If they can’t get that sorted I wouldn’t be allowing food in rooms. As for towels - I would give them a set number of towels each and make it their job to make sure they are washed. If would give them guidance of how to do it but if they run out of towels then that is their responsibility.

I can't get over the fact your children clean the bathroom and mow the lawn! That's a well done from me for that!

I used to be a secondary school teacher and the idea was to manage children's behaviour - not to control them. I think you are more on the right track than him but there could be grounds for some compromise.

It sounds like it's a lot more that the kids behaviour. You and your DH sound like you're growing apart and are very different people. Do you still have enough in common to try and find the necessary compromises here?

Just a thought…. The skipping meals could actually be because the environment feels so toxic they’re too anxious to want to eat..?

parenting styles
your parenting style OP is authoritative, your DP's style is authoritarian. if you follow the article to the end you will see that
Kids from authoritative families are usually well-behaved and successful at school. They tend to be emotionally healthy, resourceful, and socially-adept.
Kids from authoritarian families are more likely to increase aggressive or defiant behavior over time. They are also more likely to suffer from anxiety, depression, or poor self-esteem.

so you could show your DP that (rather than us saying what we think)
It must be very hard to try and co-parent with someone whose approach is so different. I have to say, if you are 'walking on eggshells' that to me is a bit of a red flag.

Punishing by for not eating how he thinks they should is ridiculous and dangerous. Different people have different appetites at different stages of their lives.

As for the rest - your DH is wrong here and he’ll reap what he sows. Be that a broken relationship with you or more likely he’ll end up with daughters who neither like him or respect him and who won’t have a close relationship with him.

Everything you describe in your OP as teen behaviour is normal. Some teens are messier than others. But it won’t end just because he’s so strict and tidiness is part of someone’s nature. Unless you sign them up to military school you’ll not win that battle and it’s not a hill worth dying in.

I’m sorry that he can’t see what he’s doing but YANBU. He is.

From what you've said I think you are doing it more or less right and he's a controlling arse. As others have said, you have to pick your battles with teenagers and their behaviour sounds absolutely normal for their age. The fact that you use the word "permissive" is a bit of a red flag for me: this is a very traditional word and one which I expect has come from him.

That said, I think the primary problem is that you are both seemingly unable to meet in the middle with this and the rows and sulks are drawn out far longer than they need to be.

You said you didn't think marriage counselling worked very well before but is it worth revisiting and trying to get someone who really "gets" the pair of you?

Messy rooms is so normal even with tidy teens.

Your DH is being so unrealistic, the silent treatment is emotional abuse.

He needs to stop sweating the small stuff and fast.

@Hankunamatata

So rules I would think of would be

1. No leaving stuff lying about the house. If it is dumped then a consequence.

1. Homework is done before socialising- this would be non negotiable for me and they would lose phone for a day.

1. Agree chores and what days they are done. If not completed by end of that day then no pocket money or reduced by whatever they haven't done.

1. Back chat or having to ask lots of times is just rude and yep that would have consequences.

We have our family rules. Everyone knows the consequences and rewards. Saves on the shouting

I think the above is reasonable and a version would be in a lot of homes.

But yours sounds like a super stressed house and unless you try and find a middle ground you have serious problems coming your way.

A house that stressed will cause huge long term damage to your children and you could be forcing them to look outside their home for comfort and support.

You say the children are already stressed.

Parents and teens clash a bit about the above list in lots of houses but it is the conflict between you and your husband, his tantrums and silence that will cause untold damage.

If it continues I think your girls may well encourage you to separate and the girls could well be lost to their father.
He will not be able to force them to spend time with him.

If ye cannot find a middle ground, I would look to separate rather than have the girls damaged for years.

Have you spoken to the girls, appealing to them to meet him half way?

I certainly don't think he should be hasseling them about food.

Teens skip meals, it happens.

I have a tendency to be upset by mess and clutter, but I learned very quickly that if I keep on at the kids they don’t want to be around me much. You have to pick your battles and he needs to get used to mess (it’s tough but it can be done) and learn to compromise. We have agreed on tidy shared spaces and they can do what they want in their rooms and bathrooms (I close the door).

The sulking in his room is another matter entirely and none of you should have to put up with that.

Op come on now. He's not a " well intentioned and loving Dad or Husband! You and your DC are walking on eggshells, being controlled, bulled and emotionally abused. They seem to do and awful lot, cleaning bathrooms and ffs, mowing the lawn. They'll end up resenting you both. They'll both maybe have children, you won't see them... see where it's going if you don't stop this nonsense now?

@ReluctantNeatFreak

This is such a relief to read outside opinions (of all varieties) - thank you all. It's not something I discuss with family or friends much as I don't want to be disloyal to DH or have others try to intervene. But it's very hard to see how others live (behind the Facebook version of events), and DH really had me convinced that I was ridiculously permissive. It's heart-wrenching, because the good times are really good (although sometimes end abruptly when someone does something 'wrong') but the bad times are soul-destroying.

"It's heart-wrenching, because the good times are really good (although sometimes end abruptly when someone does something 'wrong') but the bad times are soul-destroying."

oh that's bad...that's not different parenting styles....that's controlling behaviour

You are my mother and your DH is my father. None of us (all girls) have a close relationship with him now we're adults.

My father didn't lock himself away however - that is rather immature behaviour.

I have to say I find the description of your husbands sulking for hours and incredible bad mood pretty disturbing. As someone said it sounds like the family walk on egg shells and he is being emotionally abusive using his moods to try and control you all.

You may not be completely right about the mess but it doesn't matter. He has a horrible u healthy pattern of moods and sulking and I would say unless he is prepared to be more tolerant and calmer in discussion you are damaging your kids keeping on with this situation

Would you want your girls to be in a relationship with a man who behaved like this ?