Is DH controlling or am I permissive?

[ReluctantNeatFreak]

Sorry for long post (I'm a long-time lurker also) but I'm at my wit's end - my DH and I are on the brink of separation over our difference in parenting styles. It feels like there is lots worth saving in the marriage and I don't think any of us (me, DH, DD14, DD13) would be happy with separation, but I can't take any more days like this.

Our teenage girls do have a tendency to have messy bedrooms, leave their stuff around the house, don't eat enough fruit/veg, often prioritise seeing their mates in spare time rather than choosing to get homework/chores done first, bicker with each other, sometimes act resentfully towards parents and need to be asked several times before they get stuff done.

However, they get good grades and reports from school, have been chosen as patrol leaders in scouts, do chores like cleaning bathrooms, doing laundry, dishwashers and mowing lawns before they get any pocket money, and are usually articulate, funny, positive-minded, passionate, thoughtful of others, and (I think) generally good kids.

I feel like the negative stuff above is typical teenage stuff, and I have a 'coaching' style where I try to get them to behave better through regular prompting and encouragement, praising good behaviour and verbal admonishment when they have really let themselves down, etc. I very rarely raise my voice or give out punishments (reserved for lies and deceit, utterly unkind behaviour etc).

My DH believes that behaviours like the messy room or not eating healthily should result in sanctions (sometimes arbitrary or instant) like losing their phone for a day, banned from TV, being grounded for a day, having monitoring and checklists put in place and often shouts when he sees things that are below par or if his instructions aren't explicitly followed. If the girls (or I) protest and an argument ensues, it almost always ends up in him locking himself in his room and refusing to speak to the three of us for hours.

He thinks I undermine him and never hold the children to account. I think he's trying to exert control over teenagers in a way which makes them want to rebel more. We have a day of rows or not speaking at least once a fortnight, and this has gone on for years. The children are stressed, miserable and confused on these days.

DH is a very well-intentioned and loving Dad, but this situation is now degenerating so that they hardly ever have cuddles or chats now without him sniping or being critical and the girls retreating moodily. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells amongst them.

I honestly can no longer tell if I'm right (and he is overly strict) or if he's right (and the children would grow up with terrible life-damaging habits if he didn't teach them these lessons) and need outside opinions please.

Please let me know - YABU (DH is being a great parent and I am too permissive), YANBU (DH is being overly controlling and needs to enjoy his teenagers company more before they leave home).

I actually think the responses are skewed because understandably you have portrayed your approach in a positive light and his in a very negative light. It would interesting to see how he characterised both your approaches. Personally my experience of parents using a ‘coaching’ model is that they are walked all over by their teenagers. If you children are leaving their rooms to become disgusting then it is entirely fair enough that they should receive a sanction of some sort, why should any part of the house be left to fester because people can’t be bothered to do basic cleaning and tidying. I wonder if you actually enforce any boundaries at all with your daughters, it doesn’t sound like it.

I wonder what sort of teenager he was. What do his parents say? I hope he never eats or drinks anything unhealthy himself and that includes cigarettes and alcohol, crisps, cakes, red meat etc.

It's fair to expect that teenagers need to keep communal areas tidy but they can do what they like in their own bedroom; just don't go in there! Maybe stop buying foods which are unhealthy so they have to buy them out of their own pocket money, if they want them, and agree that school work has to be done first before they see friends. The rest is just normal teenage behaviour.

Being punished for, metaphorically, not eating an apple a day is ridiculous. Can they make a smoothie a day for breakfast. I would think him sulking, locked away for hours, would be a good way of ensuring he stays out of the way! Wait until they have their own transport then try to control what they do.

I do have a problem with mess - it's 100% a control mechanism thing with me, and I recognise it as my problem. I have a young DD and a teenage DSD and I don't sanction them when they've made a mess, but I do expect it to be tidied. DD (aged 3) helps me tidy her room. DSD does her own. It's rarely to my standard because I'm tidier than everyone else, but I appreciate the effort and deal with the rest myself.

No food outside of eating areas for any of us - adults or kids. And we don't have a go at the kids if they don't eat a prescribed amount - the kids are NT, they'll eat when they're hungry.

The most worrying thing about your post is his massive sulks when he doesn't get his own way. He's controlling you all with his bad moods. That's not healthy at all.

I used to be a secondary school teacher and the idea was to manage children's behaviour - not to control them.

I agree with that.

Imo, what happens in their bedroom is their responsibility. Up to them to decide if they want to live in a tip. I might remind them to do some tidying up but that's it.

The eating healthily made me laugh. He wants to punish his dcs because they dont have a balanced diet?!? Such as not having b'fast? Sorry but on that one, he needs to give his head a wobble as they say. Your role as a parent of teens is to put food in the table. The teachng them to enjoy to eat vegetales happened when they were little. Not now.

More importantly he has tow teens who actually are helping around the house, do their homework in a timely fashion (otherwise they wouldnt get the grades they are getting). They are involved in some volunteering/coominity and are already giving back in some ways.
What else does he think they should do? Apart from doing things HIS way rather than finding out how to do things THEIR way. You know like an independent adult who has likes and dislikes of their own. Who has worked out what is working for them etc....
I know many parents who wouold delighted if their dcs were behaving that way tbh.

My parenting style is very like yours OP. Why create unnecessary battles? Ask DH if he'd like a boss who was constantly reprimanding him, checking up on him, doubting his ability to cope or his methods, even though he got good results. Would that boss be an aid or a hindrance to his development?

I do appreciate that he may well be able to present this in a way which would have more of you saying 'Oh well you didn't say they were THAT bad', although I've tried to be fair.

Posters who said that this is as much about our relationship as about discipline are right really. Our marriage has had other historical cracks, and I guess they start to blend with the parenting issues.

This is getting hard to read as I think it's pointing towards a path I know I need to go down but dread with every fibre. It would absolutely KILL him for the family to split - it's his obsession with optimising family life that drives him to do this, ironically. His parents divorced when he was a toddler and he's had a strained relationship with his father all his life.

I'll suggest counselling but perhaps a separation is the only thing which will help us to see whether there's enough left worth fighting for, and whether 'staying together for the girls' is doing more damage than good.

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to reply.

I think the worst thing isn't that you have different rules/standards (though that's not helpful), but that your DDs not meeting your DH's standards leads to shouting, moods and sulking on his part (which, depending on how bad it is, sounds like emotional abuse). Why can't he just give them a firm talking-to or reminder and then move on? Eventually the message will sink in.

The fact his parents divorced when he was so young means he has never experienced how co-parenting works within a home and how to deal with conflict in a healthy way.

Even if he is correct in thinking your teens need to be tidier etc, the way he is addressing that is abusive (the sulking) and totally counterproductive. Even if he's right, his approach won't work. Have you pointed this out to him?

So he doesn't have a father figure or healthy male role model in his own life to draw on?

My DH never met his biological dad and only had an abusive step father from age 11 to 18 or so. No positive male role models at all e.g. a teacher or uncle etc. I frequently remind him of this when he starts shouting and making everyone miserable over petty things like putting toys away or eating veg.

I'm not sure how much people can change or increase their self awareness on these things tbh. Counselling is only going to help where a person is willing to admit they are in the wrong!

it's his obsession with optimising family life that drives him to do this

I think youve used the right word there - optimizing.
Optimizing means imposing a certain way of doing things ;'because it works better'. Bt better for who? Him? What about his dcs, or you?

Tbh life isnt about optimizing things. It's about enjoying life, and making the best out of it, through the good stuff and the bad stuff.

Both dh and I had v strict, controlling but also fairly absent fathers. The only difference is, I'd been teaching 7 years before having kids. Dh tends to react and I tend to think it through. I know my instinct is to go full on sergeant major, but 20 years around kids makes me pull back. I also see much, much worse behaviour on a daily basis than getting distracted when you're supposed to cleaning your teeth. Dh sometimes says I'm too soft, but it's me the kids actually listen to, because they know I'll listen to them. Basically,I want them to be kids I'd like to teach.

@Jellybabiesforbreakfast

I think the worst thing isn't that you have different rules/standards (though that's not helpful), but that your DDs not meeting your DH's standards leads to shouting, moods and sulking on his part (which, depending on how bad it is, sounds like emotional abuse). Why can't he just give them a firm talking-to or reminder and then move on? Eventually the message will sink in.

I completely agree, your husband is supposed to be demonstrating to his daughters what they should tolerate from other male relationships in their lives, he isn't giving them the best example.

I also don't like how he has unilaterally decided that it's you, and only you in the wrong and his way is the right way

I think you and dh need to both agree and sign up to rules and sanctions away from your daughters. You can't move forward until this is done.
The thing thst will damage your girls is not the rules , it is the undermining, sulking and fighting between you and your dh in front of them.
( I dont agree with the eating veg and fruit thing, unless they are keaving them on the dinner plate and then filling up on something else)

Family counselling?

well lets be hnest too about 'being tidy'.

I wasnt tidy as a teen. I wasn't tidy as young adukt either. Actually I was extremely untidy (think sink overflowing with dishes etc...)
I got my acts together when I moved in with a bf (but quickly reverted when I was at my own house).
And then again when I settled down with DH. I got even tidier when I had the dcs.

A lot of my friends have had a similar story. Which makes me says - Is this really that important??
(I'd say i'd they were boys, I would be stricter...)

That just sounds like normal teenage behaviour- not bad behaviour, snd I say that as a mum to 2 teenage boys and a 12 year old DD.
They get to a certain age where instant harsh ‘do as I say right now’ type punishments don’t work, they aren’t little kids who will just obey you.
A think a proper reasoned chat, with firm boundaries and a bit of a lecture / guilt tripping about acceptable behaviours works most of the time.

He does sound a bit ott but the one thing I sympathize on him for is if there is stuff lying around the house. İt's his space too and if clutter genuinely affects his capacity to be productive or relax then that is one thing you can compromise on. I think it's about sitting down and working out what is important for everyone. For him it is important to have a clean and tidy house. For you it is important to relax and not worry about such things. You could find a compromise but a counsellor would help you with this. I think you also need to be honest with your girls and explain to them that their father has anxiety over their health when it comes to the vegetables and fruit and maybe they could try to make more effort with eating them a fruit salad after dinner and a few more greens during the week or some smoothies. Not to please him, because it doesn't sound as though he just wants to be obeyed, but to help reassure him that the people he loves are healthy and to ease his anxiety, which he must be struggling with. I don't think sanctions are neccessary but just everyone understanding everyone's needs and where they're coming from.

I hope you can work it out.

I know you said he won't read a book etc, but phillipa perry's the book you wish your parents had read (and your kids will thank you for reading) is worth looking into. Even if you read it for perspective then retell to your DH?

It talks a lot to the childhood experiences and why you react like you do, whether over compensating etc and how that becomes a cycle etc. Sounds basic but does put a different perspective on things. As others have said, choosing your battles and deciding what hill you want to die on.

It's a shame you've not managed to find common ground up to now. What's made it get to tipping point now, more time together because of lockdown?

@korawick12345

I actually think the responses are skewed because understandably you have portrayed your approach in a positive light and his in a very negative light. It would interesting to see how he characterised both your approaches. Personally my experience of parents using a ‘coaching’ model is that they are walked all over by their teenagers. If you children are leaving their rooms to become disgusting then it is entirely fair enough that they should receive a sanction of some sort, why should any part of the house be left to fester because people can’t be bothered to do basic cleaning and tidying. I wonder if you actually enforce any boundaries at all with your daughters, it doesn’t sound like it.

but i think this is beyond parenting styles.....that's the hook to hang the elephant from

@ReluctantNeatFreak your name choice I think is telling - why did you choose that name.

Because I think what it is saying is that your DH has certain ideals of how he should live and his surroundings - which is fine. What isnt is that he expects everyone else to fall in line with his needs and wants and expectations and doesnt budge.

What is far far worse than making 3 women toe the line of these with instant sanctions and then locking himself in.

I would say he needs counselling - both to understand why he has the need for everything to be in order and then also how to deal with it and that actual normal family life isnt perfect.

I think if he isnt willing to see that he is the one needs to see his handling of it isnt healthy you need to prioritise your daughters.

I struggle with the idea of "sanctions". After all your daughters are not a rogue state!

We are not permissive- we do insist on reasonable bedroom tidiness, reasonably sensible consumption of fresh food, reasonable table manners, reasonable levels of politeness, reasonable limits on screens.

But we tend to do it by a kind of never ending reminding, insisting, prompting, sitting down for a serious word kind of approach. As well as helping them if they struggle to tidy etc.

It's just a day in day outkind of thing - eventually it will seep into their souls.

We've never banned screens or cancelled parties or confiscated phones or the naughty step when they were little.

I think that is a kind of behavioural approach which is a bit flawed - like training a dog. Take away x to get the behaviour you want.

Prefer something more relational I guess.

I've seen something online where research suggested that the more the permissive parent undermines the stricter one it results in the stricter one becoming more strict.

I wonder if instead of giving up on your marriage you and DH come up with house rules that you know you can implement and you actually do implement them. Dh should then relax after a while and get a grip.

If it doesn't work and you feel like you're all in a dictatorship then you can change what you're doing again.

I grew up in a household with a controlling father and the feeling of walking on eggshells all the time is something I still remember clearly. It is really damaging for your dds.

The thing about this dynamic is that your dh must, on some level, feel entitled to control both you and your dds. And that doesn't speak very well of him, however kind he is in other ways.