To not understand the vaccine drama

[Lei8133]

I am so confused by all this anti-vaxxer hate and mandating the COVID vaccine for certain professions extra. IMO if you have had the vaccine (which I have, well I’m awaiting my 2nd dose) surely people who haven’t had the jab pose no increased threat to us. The only people they cause harm to are fellow anti-vaxxers and other unvaccinated people for whom the risk is always present.

Surely whether we like it or not it is a personal choice whether you receive the vaccine or not and the freedom of choice is something we should all advocate for whether we agree with the decision or not surely?!? I just don’t get it and the divide it is causes amongst friends, family and the greater society is saddening. AIBU?!?! If so can someone explain to me how unvaccinated relatives and friends are potentially harmful to me despite having received the jab?

@ddl1
How does a death from covid restrict your freedom more than a death from old age? It doesn’t because the cause didn’t take your freedom away... the death did.

This point was made in response to you saying that the cause of death was pertinent to the lack of freedom....

*@ddl1
How does a death from covid restrict your freedom more than a death from old age? It doesn’t because the cause didn’t take your freedom away... the death did.

This point was made in response to you saying that the cause of death was pertinent to the lack of freedom.*

Well, it is, in the sense that someone who refuses to be vaccinated when they could, and takes or keeps a job where they have to be close to very vulnerable people, risks destroying their lives and thereby their freedom.

Our lives could be destroyed in ways that have nothing to do with other people's actions; but surely people should try to reduce the risk of destroying other people's lives!

What I meant is that one person's freedom not to be told to get a vaccine could destroy another person's freedom to live a relatively healthy life, or perhaps to live at all.

I'm not having the vaccine, don't care what others do.

@Sirzy

No vaccine is 100% effective - either in stopping transmission or in stopping people being ill. Thankfully the data suggests it does makes a massive difference for both though.

Some people can’t be vaccinated. Some people won’t make any antibodies even if they are.

The more people are are vaccinated then the lower rates of community transmission will become and as a result the lower the number of cases and more importantly hospitalisations/deaths will become

Spot on

@ddl1 you’ve literally gone off on a tangent nothing I say will help you see that.

@OchonAgusOchonOh maybe it wasn’t the best of analogies... but you get the point something that exists that could potentially be of harm, but isn’t necessarily of have just by being present.

The phone whilst driving thing wasn’t great either because driving whilst using your phone is wrong in essence. IMO

If you don’t get the vaccine, you’re being a selfish prick. That’s your prerogative, but IMO you should expect some restrictions. To my mind if you don’t get the vaccine you shouldn’t be allowed to travel, shouldn’t be allowed to go to pubs/restaurants, and shouldn’t be given treatment if you get covid.

Your choice not to get vaccinated has an impact on other people and on society.

If you don’t get the vaccine, you’re being a selfish prick. That’s your prerogative, but IMO you should expect some restrictions. To my mind if you don’t get the vaccine you shouldn’t be allowed to travel, shouldn’t be allowed to go to pubs/restaurants, and shouldn’t be given treatment if you get covid.

Your choice not to get vaccinated has an impact on other people and on society
People who feel like this, must be apoplectic with rage at the thought of the forthcoming football, tennis and horse racing.

I mean, 60,000 people in Wembley. 2500 VIPs able to fly in from anywhere, without the need to quarantine.

How many of those 60,000 won't be vaccinated? Very, very selfish indeed right?. Think of all those innocent people they'll come in to contact with, on their travels to the stadium. The tube, buses, overground trains in & around London.

@Lei8133 - but you get the point something that exists that could potentially be of harm, but isn’t necessarily of have just by being present.

Something that exists but isn't necessarily of harm by being present is very different to wilful behaviour that has potential to harm others.

The phone whilst driving thing wasn’t great either because driving whilst using your phone is wrong in essence. IMO

Says who?

We have decided it is wrong because the science shows us that we have less control over the car and are less observant when our attention is divided, making us more likely to crash and injure/kill someone. The science also tells us that the unvaccinated are more likely to catch and transmit covid making them more likely to infect someone else, and therefore potentially kill or injure (e.g long covid or just a bad dose) them.

@SmokeyDevil

The only ones I've seen being vocal about it at least that won't get a vaccine are the ones that take drugs. I find it odd that they won't have a vaccine that has been medically approved because it might harm them, but they are happy to take god knows what off Kenny down the road.

Each to their own, but if they get denied air travel or access to stuff, that's on their head. Can't complain when they've got a way out but just won't take it. It's the same for other countries already isn't it, need to have had certain vaccinations before you enter.

This won't be the only vaccine either. This is likely to be an annual thing, although that may only be for the elderly and the vulnerable. The rest of us might get away with just this lot.

I've also had this experience 'Joe bloggs' comes into work after the weekend bragging about how he's done ket and acid, yet the vaccination is a big control game/conspiracy theory

@Justgettingbye - I've also had this experience 'Joe bloggs' comes into work after the weekend bragging about how he's done ket and acid, yet the vaccination is a big control game/conspiracy theory

The drugs are obviously very good ones then.

@OchonAgusOchonOh yes

@OchonAgusOchonOh
I don’t think you can say that it’s different because being unvaccinated itself does not cause harm it ONLY has the potential to cause harm if that person happens to catch covid. Being unvaccinated and catching covid is where the risk arose.

Lmao- says me hence the ‘IMO’ just as in your opinion my access to unhealthy food analogy wasn’t s* hehe.

Not focusing on the road whilst driving (using phone) whilst it may be backed by science... doesn’t need a rocket scientist to tell you that this is wrong you’ve literally stopped doing the most important thing you should do when driving. Not being vaccinated itself IMO cannot be comparable to this.

@Alongwayfromeverything whether all society agrees or not, I just find that sad. As someone who I assume has taken/will take their vaccine would you be offended if unvaccinated people were allowed to partake in the same activities as vaccinated; I.e. pubs/travelling etc but with heavier restrictions imposed on them for example still wearing face coverings etc or even having segregated areas?

Is the general feeling ‘get the jab or your not entitled to do anything and should be made to stay at home’? What should unvaccinated people be allowed to do post rollout?

*you’re

The more unvaccinated people there are sharing this disease, the more chance they will breed a variant that bypasses the vaccine and then we're back where we started.

If middle aged (over 40s) keep refusing the vaccine they’ll likely end up in hospital. That is what will stop restrictions being lifted. I’m a doctor, we’re already seeing people who are youngish (say under 60) but who refused vaccines being admitted. Very sad to watch poorly people who maybe if they’d had even one vaccine would have a more mild course of their disease or not caught it at all.

So frustrating to be admitting covid patients again! Arrrrrgh.

No one seems to think it’ll be them admitted to hospital, but it will be someone. Lots of people think they have no risk factors whilst they swan about with a BMI of 30 (standard U.K. woman size we wouldn’t bat an eyelid if we saw them on the street but technically obese) or undiagnosed high blood pressure.

Sorry. Rant over.

Not going to get into the ethics of having or not having the vaccine, but this:

"while pretending you're doing it for the most vulnerable society when you're really only doing it to protect yourself or to make yourself feel better about your own decision to have it"

...not only complete lack of empathy, but the idea that other people being capable of empathy is preposterous - is disturbing.

And I don't know why anyone would need to "make themselves feel better about their own decision to have it"? Bizarre.

[quote Lei8133]@OchonAgusOchonOh
I don’t think you can say that it’s different because being unvaccinated itself does not cause harm it ONLY has the potential to cause harm if that person happens to catch covid. Being unvaccinated and catching covid is where the risk arose.

Lmao- says me hence the ‘IMO’ just as in your opinion my access to unhealthy food analogy wasn’t s* hehe.

Not focusing on the road whilst driving (using phone) whilst it may be backed by science... doesn’t need a rocket scientist to tell you that this is wrong you’ve literally stopped doing the most important thing you should do when driving. Not being vaccinated itself IMO cannot be comparable to this.

@Alongwayfromeverything whether all society agrees or not, I just find that sad. As someone who I assume has taken/will take their vaccine would you be offended if unvaccinated people were allowed to partake in the same activities as vaccinated; I.e. pubs/travelling etc but with heavier restrictions imposed on them for example still wearing face coverings etc or even having segregated areas?

Is the general feeling ‘get the jab or your not entitled to do anything and should be made to stay at home’? What should unvaccinated people be allowed to do post rollout?[/quote]
I don’t think you can say that it’s different because being unvaccinated itself does not cause harm it ONLY has the potential to cause harm if that person happens to catch covid. Being unvaccinated and catching covid is where the risk arose.

Driving while on the phone (or speeding) in itself does not cause harm. It only has the potential to cause harm if the driver encounters a situation where their lack of concentration (or speed) results in an accident. Not being vaccinated only causes harm if the unvaccinated person ends up in a situation where their lack of antibodies results in an infection which they can then potentially pass on to others. Both situations show a lack of responsibility towards society at large.

@Person23 I think you’re taking it out of context. If our freedoms weren’t in the balance how many would rush forward to take a vaccine for the good of others... not saying it doesn’t happen but I can agree that there are defo people taking the vaccine for selfish reasons (like myself) who will admit that, but also a percentage who look down on others not taking it holding a moral magnifying glass up to them, saying that it’s for the good of others etc. When they are no better than me, just getting it for themselves, the benefits to others is just a happy coincidence. However they lord it over people as if this is their main motivation. IMO

PS no I’m not saying there aren’t a genuine set of people who get the vaccine to help society & others.

Personally @OchonAgusOchonOh I think you’re wrong. But can see how the same logic could be applied to both scenarios. Ultimately we could go on for days on the topic... it’s clearly a matter of opinion.

I think it goes back to what I was trying to debate before, can you compare wanting to live your life without interference of medicine etc, the most natural form of living as risky as choosing to drive a car?!? Does society get to set the parameters for what’s acceptable?!? Maybe. Maybe not.

Quite mad when you really try to delve into it...

This is a serious global situation. If you’re not prepared to be part of the solution, you’re part of the problem and deserve to be treated as such.

There are no convincing arguments against having the vaccine. We’re incredibly fortunate to live in a wealthy, western democracy where we have been offered a vaccine, quickly and free of charge. There are people in the world who would love to have the vaccine people here are choosing not to have.

I’d be interested to see how many antivaxxers would suddenly see the light if not being vaccinated meant they couldn’t travel or go to the pub.

They are selfish idiots.

No convincing reason? How about thousands of vaccine related deaths?

Thousands? Bullshit. Where is your source?

Erm have you read the MHRA and VAERS reporters adverse effects which are said to report only a tenth?

Post your source for thousands of vaccine related deaths