To not understand the vaccine drama

[Lei8133]

I am so confused by all this anti-vaxxer hate and mandating the COVID vaccine for certain professions extra. IMO if you have had the vaccine (which I have, well I’m awaiting my 2nd dose) surely people who haven’t had the jab pose no increased threat to us. The only people they cause harm to are fellow anti-vaxxers and other unvaccinated people for whom the risk is always present.

Surely whether we like it or not it is a personal choice whether you receive the vaccine or not and the freedom of choice is something we should all advocate for whether we agree with the decision or not surely?!? I just don’t get it and the divide it is causes amongst friends, family and the greater society is saddening. AIBU?!?! If so can someone explain to me how unvaccinated relatives and friends are potentially harmful to me despite having received the jab?

@Rmka

Right now I can think of at least two examples of how antivax hurt the whole community.

1. Measles is coming back because the uptake is too low to keep the herd immunity.
2. Whooping cough also came back in numbers that are high enough to pose a threat to newborns. That's why pregnant women are adviced to take whopping cough vaccine to pass antibodies, because babies get their own jab only when they're 8 weeks old. If a newborn has contact with older children and get the virus from them, it poses very high risk

Yeah I caught Rubella a couple of years ago despite being vaccinated. I was obviously one of a small percentage of unlucky people who still catch it despite the virus BUT we wouldn't have Rubella circulating in the UK if uptake of the MMR hadn't decreased as a result of antivaxer lies.

** despite the vaccine, not virus!

@Lei8133

Thanks all, I appreciate the views and a bit more insight into why people get so incensed over the whole thing.

@Peoniesandpeaches I don’t think it would have crossed my mind to know the vaccine status of the treating professionals pre-COVID. I mean how many people do we come into contact with in everyday situations that don’t have a number of other vaccinations and we never even considered their potential ‘threat’ before?!?!... Would you allow a person with AIDS treat you? Yes. Why? Because it’s not transmissible through touch? Unvaccinated people don’t have Covid... surely they would have to undergo regular testing and would not have Covid when treating cancer...

@Pedalpushers there are roughly 60m people in the us and 40m have been vaccinated (remembering the remaining 20m includes children & assuming all 40m receive both doses) surely the threshold has been reached & the great unwashed’s number isn’t high enough to make a meaningful difference.

The point I’m trying to debate here is why is this particular vaccination issue greater than any other. Not everyone gets every vaccine that is offered to them & their children and we as a society may not approve, but do not openly vilify like we do when it comes to the Covid vaccine in particular. Why is this vaccine issue so divisive?

The point I’m trying to debate here is why is this particular vaccination issue greater than any other. Not everyone gets every vaccine that is offered to them & their children and we as a society may not approve, but do not openly vilify like we do when it comes to the Covid vaccine in particular. Why is this vaccine issue so divisive?

The reason this vaccine is a major issue is pretty obvious. We are dealing with a pandemic. It is a highly contagious disease. It has a reasonably high rate of mortality in certain cohorts. It has a massive impact on our health services.

People not taking up the mmr or theft vaccine do not present the same threat because the prevalence of those diseases in our communities is not high enough for them to post the same risks to us to to our health services.

Google it. Some people have had both doses of the vaccine and then died from Covid. The vaccines can end the pandemic but only if enough people take them that the virus stops circulating widely.

Andrew Wakefield was never anti vax. He advocated single vaccines instead of the MMR which some parents decided to go for.

@Kittenbittenmitten

Andrew Wakefield was never anti vax. He advocated single vaccines instead of the MMR which some parents decided to go for.

Given that his work was discredited and shown to be falsified, I don't think he has any credibility. He caused a lot of harm.

I've not been vaccinated and don't intend to be.

I think making it mandatory to be vaccinated to work in certain roles is a very slippery slope. Ditto vaccine passports which weren't going to be a thing they said, but are now being introduced regardless. The creep of power concerns me.

At s general level I pose a very limited risk. The only people I am in close proximity with are my children and partner. I WFH, so does partner. One child doesn't work (or leave the house, that's another story). I don't go to pubs, I do go to the supermarket but maintain social distancing even though no one else bothers. Chances of me being asymptomatic and passing Covid on is negligible.

@Grenlei

I've not been vaccinated and don't intend to be.

I think making it mandatory to be vaccinated to work in certain roles is a very slippery slope. Ditto vaccine passports which weren't going to be a thing they said, but are now being introduced regardless. The creep of power concerns me.

At s general level I pose a very limited risk. The only people I am in close proximity with are my children and partner. I WFH, so does partner. One child doesn't work (or leave the house, that's another story). I don't go to pubs, I do go to the supermarket but maintain social distancing even though no one else bothers. Chances of me being asymptomatic and passing Covid on is negligible.

Vaccines have always been mandated for certain jobs. Both my ds and dd are in healthcare. Both needed Hep-B and proof of mmr.

I think bullying or forcing anyone to do something that has even a slight risk of physical harm, purely for other people's benefit (which is really all other people care about, despite their pretence at benign paternalism) is far more wrong than someone not doing 'their bit' for society.

Yes, vaccination is the rational and sensible thing to do (on a purely individual basis) and maybe not having it is a selfish thing to do, but is it any less selfish than bullying someone into having it (while pretending you're doing it for the most vulnerable society when you're really only doing it to protect yourself or to make yourself feel better about your own decision to have it)?

@OchonAgusOchonOh I get that the threat is present. At some point the threat of those other diseases was present too hence the manufacturing of vaccines for them... which some people didn’t take, yet we survived and let those people be.

@Neron I agree, perhaps this is why I come off as being unreasonable. Lol.

I’m basically in the middle of an argument with my friends because of this whole to bad or not to bad thing and I can’t help but feel deep in my heart that it’s wrong for us to persecute people who don’t want to get the jab?!? Whether it’s because they believe some weird stuff or just that they have an inane fear of needles or even vaccines, surely that’s allowed?!?

@Notthemessiah & @Grenlei thank you for the opposing views x

@Lei8133 - I get that the threat is present. At some point the threat of those other diseases was present too hence the manufacturing of vaccines for them... which some people didn’t take, yet we survived and let those people be.

The threat from those diseases was in no way comparable to the threat from covid. When I was a child, there were no vaccines for mmr where I lived. I had measles and mumps as a child. I gave my 6m old sister measles. Pretty much everyone of my childhood peers had measles. None of us were hospitalised or suffered long term impacts.

Those diseases did not have the impact on society or our health care system that covid has had. We are dealing with a pandemic here. Measles tended to consist of localised outbreaks that affected a lot of children in the local area. Very different.

Too many people don’t have the vaccine > too many people catch the virus > part of them end up in hospital > nhs gets busy > some restrictions are brought back for everyone even for you who is double vaccinated.

Also your neighbour who can’t be vaccinated because of their immune system catches the virus because not enough people got vaccinated

Maybe our opinions are biased upon where we live. I have the misfortune to live and work, and my kids go to school, in a covid hotspot. This area has a particularly poor vaccine uptake (I know this, though my exposure at work).

I can imagine that if the community levels are low, it’s of very little everyday impact whether strangers vaccinate. However, from my personal experience, here, we literally cannot continue like this. And this can happen anywhere.

We have covid in the house (caught by middle child at school). My eldest was already isolating due to a close contact from his part time job. I’m now off work, as is DP, all 3 kids are off school, my son’s PT job restaurant has closed this week as no staff. This is battering us week upon week.

I like to think I’m a pragmatic easy going person but watching the continued cycle of cancellations, lack of schooling, disappointments, new anxiety in the kids, knowledge that planning anything is pointless due to its 99% not going to happen, watching illnesses/deaths at work increase in the unvaccinated population.... I am losing my rag with the those who feel getting themselves vaccinated is not affecting the wider population, if I’m honest.

As much as I understand the frustration with anti vaxxers, I’ll never agree to any kind of coercion. Bodily autonomy is a human right and must be respected. I’ve had two AZ jabs, but completely understand why people feel hesitant when the long term effects of the vaccines are not known, particularly in children.

Chances of me being asymptomatic and passing Covid on is negligible. - should read "I hope are negligible" Grenlei.

We get vaccinated to protect those who can't I thought.
Any reduction in risk for those people is valuable to them.
I see people who won't get vaccinated for no good reason as people who don't care about others.

@FindingMeno - We get vaccinated to protect those who can't I thought.

That is part of public health policy but I don't think it's the case for most people at an individual level.

People get vaccinated for a myriad of reasons, most of them reasonably selfish. Reasons can range from protecting yourself to wanting to return to a more normal life and recognising mass vaccination is the way to go. Sure, lots of us may feel good about the fact that we are protecting those who can't be vaccinated too but I suspect the percentage of people for whom that is the primary motivator is vanishingly small.

@FindingMeno I appreciate that overall the vast population being vaccinated will protect/is hoped to protect those who are unable to be vaccinated. But let’s face it, none of us who are vaccinated woke up thinking ‘I’m going to get that jab for the sake of those with autoimmune diseases, who can’t be jabbed themselves!’ We got it to protect ourselves, because we don’t want to die from Covid...

I think people who don’t want to have the vaccine care about their own health first not the health of strangers. Not saying this is not understandable- if you do not believe something is safe you are not going to have it and put yourself at risk to protect others? Health is the one thing we have and I totally get why people are not going to risk themselves for the sake of others.

[quote Lei8133]@FindingMeno I appreciate that overall the vast population being vaccinated will protect/is hoped to protect those who are unable to be vaccinated. But let’s face it, none of us who are vaccinated woke up thinking ‘I’m going to get that jab for the sake of those with autoimmune diseases, who can’t be jabbed themselves!’ We got it to protect ourselves, because we don’t want to die from Covid...[/quote]
@OchonAgusOchonOh That’s the thing it’s ok for us to be selfish or have selfish reasons for getting the jab and feel good about ourselves because our decision, though selfish it may be, has helped others. But those who decide not to be vaccinated are condemned for only thinking of themselves... maybe this is why I struggle to find the venom for anti-Vaxxers that others think I ought to have?!?!

grenlei

I haven’t been vaccinated and don’t intend to be. At s general level I pose a very limited risk. The only people I am in close proximity with are my children and partner. I WFH, so does partner. One child doesn't work (or leave the house, that's another story). I don't go to pubs, I do go to the supermarket but maintain social distancing even though no one else bothers. Chances of me being asymptomatic and passing Covid on is negligible

Just out of curiosity. If you caught Covid from your kids, would you be willing to forgo NHS treatment in the unlikely even you were very ill with Covid?
Trying to take my son to a hospital struggling to cope with Covid patients wasn’t fun.

@Lei8133 - That’s the thing it’s ok for us to be selfish or have selfish reasons for getting the jab and feel good about ourselves because our decision, though selfish it may be, has helped others. But those who decide not to be vaccinated are condemned for only thinking of themselves... maybe this is why I struggle to find the venom for anti-Vaxxers that others think I ought to have?!?!

My disdain for the anti-vaxxers is completely selfish. The fewer people who get vaccinated, the longer it will take us to get out of this mess and the higher the chances there will be a variant that evades the vaccine. Their actions impact directly on me and society in general.

Think of vaccinations like a wearing a safety belt whilst doing 70mph on a motorway. Seat belts cannot prevent a car crash happening, but they can protect those involved in one.

People who drive without seat belts can become human projectiles in the event of a crash, killing those around them (even those wearing seat belts themselves). They can create death &/or injury in themselves and are also likely to suffer more extreme injury.

This will take up resources such as police, ambulances, hospital staff etc as well and (usually) cause massive road blockages affecting thousands of others who were just going about their day. Including giving PTSD to witnesses/others involved in the crash, doing long term psychological damage, so it's not just the physical injury that is an issue here, it's the mental toll as well.

This costs the government huge amounts, as well as diverting vital resources away from where they are needed.

Those who convince others not to wear seat belts (get the vaccine) increase the risk of harm exponentially and vastly increase the chance of simple "accidents" becoming deadly ones.

@Neron

unless you count letting it run rampant and watching people die* Not being facetious, but I genuinely don't understand comments like this. We haven't had masses of people drop dead have we? The likes of supermarket workers, delivery drivers, other medical services (not incl GPs/NHS) and so forth. All of which have worked throughout, with little/inadequate or zero PPE, they've done just fine with no vaccination until now.

The virus isn't harmful to the vast majority of people, are we expecting that to change?

What?? No they certainly have not done "just fine." Mortality rates from Covid-19 are higher among people working in some public-facing occupations and in close proximity to others, such as nurses, social care workers, security guards, transport workers, and sales and retail assistants. And Covid19 was the leading cause of death in 2020. More information on death rates among various groups is here: www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/deaths-covid-19