To not understand the vaccine drama

[Lei8133]

I am so confused by all this anti-vaxxer hate and mandating the COVID vaccine for certain professions extra. IMO if you have had the vaccine (which I have, well I’m awaiting my 2nd dose) surely people who haven’t had the jab pose no increased threat to us. The only people they cause harm to are fellow anti-vaxxers and other unvaccinated people for whom the risk is always present.

Surely whether we like it or not it is a personal choice whether you receive the vaccine or not and the freedom of choice is something we should all advocate for whether we agree with the decision or not surely?!? I just don’t get it and the divide it is causes amongst friends, family and the greater society is saddening. AIBU?!?! If so can someone explain to me how unvaccinated relatives and friends are potentially harmful to me despite having received the jab?

In an unvaccinated world (which the world at large still is), the virus kills off the most vulnerable, and infects almost everybody. Of the less vulnerable, a certain percentage will die. Of course, a very small percentage of 6 Billion is still a lot!.

Then, either the entire world builds an immunity that either kills the virus, or makes it it non-consequential, or... it mutates many many times. Some of which will make it less effective, some more effective.

Given the damage it's already done, I think most folks would rather be pro-active in trying to shut it down, rather than rely on nature taking its course (when nature isn't always particularly kind!)

There was an article recently about thousands of Indian children having to have their eyes removed because a black fungus caused by a mutant Covid strain is destroying their eyeballs.
These are the kind of mutant strains that are developing I wonder how many anti vaxxers in the UK would be running to the vaccination centres if this variant took hold in this country.
The mutations are already becoming the stuff of nightmares.

@Kittenbittenmitten

I think everyone has the right to refuse the vaccine (even if it is a stupid thing to do), but I think they should have their lives restricted (no right to use public transport, no sending their children to school, not allowed to attend large sporting events etc.). So that they do not endanger those who cannot have the vaccine. Choices have to have consequences

So it would appear you don't value bodily autonomy but rather you favour psychological torture and coercion. Would you have the same reaction if someone you knew took the vaccine and suffered an injury? oh well that's a consequence of his choice.
It should be a perfectly reasonable choice to not want to risk your health on the vaccine but some people have been very much brainwashed into thinking that if you won't have a foreign substance injected into your body then you're really selfish. Government payouts for vaccine injuries aren't very much and you must be suitably affected. The manufacturers are protected. Caution is a good thing

But we have our drinking water treated by commercial companies, and regulated by governments in the interests of the general population.

We have our air quality regulated.

We have our radio waves regulated.

All of these things our bodies are exposed to, without true autonomy.

Of course, that doesn't necessarily equate to any government having free reign over our bodies, but it also establishes that what our bodies are exposed to, is often under the control of others.

Mucormycosis isn't caused by Covid. However, steroids used to treat Covid make people more susceptible to mucor (often found in soil, but also in air).

Still, I think the point being made is that as a result of Covid, there are other consequential effects that are particularly horrific.

Many of us will have gladly accepted a vaccine that in all probability, would have served better to the more needy in a foreign country. You could make a fair argument that that was selfish too.

You cannot divide the world up in that way. If say 25% of GB population decided to send their dose to Africa, no-one would gain. Too many people in Africa for that to make a difference to the spread, and here we would have a high proportion of unvaccinated people to encourage spread and mutations.

It would be a lose:lose situation. Neither would gain.

We are so lucky to have these vaccines. Those who burned the midnight oil getting it ready must be tearing their hair out at some of the nonsense that is being spouted.

It really is out only way out, if we accept that letting the virus run rampant and mutate at will and kill at will is not an option.

Verticai- yes you are spot on - sorry should have clarified more a side effect of treatment for Covid in countries with less medical resources and hotter/ humid climates from steroid treatment, oxygen support and Covid triggering diabetes. But fair to say they wouldn’t have had the fungal infection if they hadn’t had Covid and need to be treated. Also happening a lot in Chile. Grim reading

We aren’t vaccinating children and vaccines don’t stop spread or mutants so all the salivating above is meaningless.

Vaccines significantly reduce spread (both stopping most infection and a lot of onward transmission) and it looks like in the minority of the vaccinated who do get infected, viral load is much lower, so fewer replications. Fewer replications = fewer chances for mutation.

@Mischance

Many of us will have gladly accepted a vaccine that in all probability, would have served better to the more needy in a foreign country. You could make a fair argument that that was selfish too.

You cannot divide the world up in that way. If say 25% of GB population decided to send their dose to Africa, no-one would gain. Too many people in Africa for that to make a difference to the spread, and here we would have a high proportion of unvaccinated people to encourage spread and mutations.

It would be a lose:lose situation. Neither would gain.

We are so lucky to have these vaccines. Those who burned the midnight oil getting it ready must be tearing their hair out at some of the nonsense that is being spouted.

It really is out only way out, if we accept that letting the virus run rampant and mutate at will and kill at will is not an option.

I disagree.

If a reasonably healthy person in the UK gives their vaccine to a 70 year old in India (say), then it is more likely that a life will be saved as a result.

Obviously, the maths is more complicated - as it depends on the likelihood of the 70 year old in India getting the virus vs that of a 40 year old in the UK, multiplied by the likelihood of surviving an infection etc etc, but generally speaking, the vaccine would have been better served elsewhere.

It doesn't really matter about the actual number of infections elsewhere, or the rate of spread. For any given vaccinated individual, their odds of survival are basically down to two key factors - 1) whether vaccinated or not, and 2) Their statistical odds of surviving an infection without the vaccine.

On balance, my odds of surviving without a vaccine are greater than many others who do not yet have the vaccine (through no fault of their own). This is simply down to being fortunate enough to live in a wealthy nation with excellent vaccine access.

Whilst we are all benefitting from the vaccine, I think we do need to accept we've taken care of ourselves first and foremost, and to some extent, that's absolutely been at the expense of others.

@JassyRadlett

We aren’t vaccinating children and vaccines don’t stop spread or mutants so all the salivating above is meaningless.

Vaccines significantly reduce spread (both stopping most infection and a lot of onward transmission) and it looks like in the minority of the vaccinated who do get infected, viral load is much lower, so fewer replications. Fewer replications = fewer chances for mutation.

This is absolutely why the entire world needs to be vaccinated. We might congratulate ourselves on a fantastic vaccine rollout for the UK, but we can't live in a silo forever. If the rest of the world allows the virus to multiply, then as you say, there will be more mutations (perfectly natural behaviour), and the more mutations, the more likely a nasty mutation will occur.

Of course, you could get a nasty variant with just one mutation (very unlucky), but if you have 10,000 mutations, there's a far greater chance that one of them will do us harm!

The entire world should of course ideally be vaccinated - no question. But the more countries who become virus free (as far as that is possible) the better - there will be fewer people carrying it around the world.

If we had donated all our vaccines to a poor country on the grounds that we were more likely than they to survive the virus if we got it, our NHS would have collapsed by now and tens of thousands more would have died.

The answer is not an either/or - it is for the richer nations to donate vaccines to poorer countries - which they are now starting to do.

I think another potential issue will be how long the vaccines last.
Current estimates are at least 12 months, with some latent resilience for much longer - but time will tell how much resilience and for how long.

Plus of course, there's the potential to need modified vaccines for any troublesome mutations.

In the perfect scenario, there'll be enough to go around. In (arguably) the more likely scenario, demand will still outstrip supply. Again though, only time will tell. If there's a licence for many more manufacturers, then things should improve.

@CaraherEIL defo some hatred flying about amongst the pro covid vaccine community towards those who don’t want it... check my op that was one of the motivations for my starting this thread.

@Neron & @Kittenbittenmitten even as someone who has had their jab I can agree that there is something sinister happening within society at the mo.

We have spent 18 months interacting as a non vaccinated/partially vaccinated society and the deaths,cases, etc. Have risen and fallen but there has been no mass deaths/illness on an extreme scale. So surely going back into normal interactions as a mostly vaccinated population will not worsen the post-situation, because the majority of people will no longer be hosts/transmitters etc. That’s what I can’t understand, the number of vaccinated goes up everyday surely the minority of people who don’t have the jab only endanger themselves.

Vulnerable people will always be vulnerable and probably have to continue to observe shielding etc for a long time.

P.S. Bit of a hypothetical - if the vaccine take up around the world is low then restricting things like travel for the unvaccinated is counterproductive as you could travel to a country and be interacting with their unvaccinated carry a mutation home with you, that you do not suffer from as the vaccine has protected you, but manage to transmit to your elderly grandma because this mutation is more contagious and the vaccine doesn’t protect you from transmitting it to a more susceptible party...

@Duggeehugs82 - Grenlei already said that they don’t want the vaccine and don’t care if others get it or not...

[quote Lei8133]@CaraherEIL defo some hatred flying about amongst the pro covid vaccine community towards those who don’t want it... check my op that was one of the motivations for my starting this thread.

@Neron & @Kittenbittenmitten even as someone who has had their jab I can agree that there is something sinister happening within society at the mo.

We have spent 18 months interacting as a non vaccinated/partially vaccinated society and the deaths,cases, etc. Have risen and fallen but there has been no mass deaths/illness on an extreme scale. So surely going back into normal interactions as a mostly vaccinated population will not worsen the post-situation, because the majority of people will no longer be hosts/transmitters etc. That’s what I can’t understand, the number of vaccinated goes up everyday surely the minority of people who don’t have the jab only endanger themselves.

Vulnerable people will always be vulnerable and probably have to continue to observe shielding etc for a long time.

P.S. Bit of a hypothetical - if the vaccine take up around the world is low then restricting things like travel for the unvaccinated is counterproductive as you could travel to a country and be interacting with their unvaccinated carry a mutation home with you, that you do not suffer from as the vaccine has protected you, but manage to transmit to your elderly grandma because this mutation is more contagious and the vaccine doesn’t protect you from transmitting it to a more susceptible party...

@Duggeehugs82 - Grenlei already said that they don’t want the vaccine and don’t care if others get it or not...[/quote]
We've spent 18 months under restrictions (not behaving normally) in order to control the infection rate and ultimately to prevent NHS overload.

With the advent of vaccines, we are able to reduce the restrictions, but still quite a high number of people are not vaccinated, and even those who are are not guaranteed to be 100% safe. Some vaccinated people WILL die.

We have two issues to consider. Firstly, we don't want to completely let go of all restrictions only to discover that the virus spreads like wildfire again (even though we know the vaccines help to reduce the spread). Some communities in particular have a much lower uptake of vaccines, and if the virus reaches those communities, it will spread like wildfire and result in many deaths.

Then there is the longer term issue of allowing the unvaccinated population to intermingle as they did prior to the pandemic. If this is allowed and not carefully monitored, we will still be encouraging the virus to mutate and run the risk of a mutation developing that undermines the vaccination work.

@Kittenbittenmitten

I'm guessing hes antivax now as he makes money from jumping on the anti vax bandwagon , he had 30%shares in a single meseals jab. He is responsible for mesals coming back into circulation, evil man No more evil than the pharmaceutical companies worried about the sales of MMR vaccine in the UK.

Not really. They didn't conduct research with an undeclared self interest in profiting from it, nor reduce immunity to diseases in large groups of children. Who then went on to contract measles and put others at risk. My 2 year old isn't vaccinated yet. They are too young. If an older kid in the nursery refused the mmr due to this rubbished and discredited "research" by Wakefield then they can fuck off out of the nursery and stay at home.

Lei8 I think travel for the unvaccinated will be prohibited I think they are already laying the groundwork for that.
I think the same about large communal gatherings.
I think the New World Order will pinch the voluntarily unvaccinated hard and will clarify how firm their commitment to remaining unvaccinated is.
I think the government may well use this as a tool to push the vaccine uptake.
There is already suggestion in the press of no social isolation for doubly vaccinated people just a daily lateral flow test for 5 days.
Non vaccinated will have to observe the usual 10 days PCR protocol.
The differences in the freedoms of the different communities is already becoming évident.
I agree with Vertical while there are still so many unknowns and while there are areas with low vaccine uptake we will rotate between, lockdown hotspots, school closures and social isolation to prevent Delta or any new mutations getting a foothold.

Also, we say ‘vaccination is the only way out of the pandemic’ and I wonder how many of us see freedom to live life in a pre-covid way/end lockdowns & restrictions and less cases of covid as synonymous, because lockdown and restrictions have been associated with the pandemic.

The choice to vaccinate is entirely selfish and I think we have to stop ‘looking down at people from our high horses’ telling them what they should be doing. How many people donate to oxfam?... of every earning adult in richer countries donated a small sum monthly we could likely end poverty in 3rd world countries... do we do it? No, cos it matters very little to us. But I can imagine if we were told that poverty was infections and the only way to prevent ourselves falling prey and our loved ones was for every earning adult to donate to a fund.... we would be all over it. people only ever do anything for themselves

This is absolutely why the entire world needs to be vaccinated.
We might congratulate ourselves on a fantastic vaccine rollout for the UK, but we can't live in a silo forever. If the rest of the world allows the virus to multiply, then as you say, there will be more mutations (perfectly natural behaviour), and the more mutations, the more likely a nasty mutation will occur.

Totally agree with this, and at pace, with a focus on the countries with the highest case loads to reduce collective risk.

@CaraherEIL you’re right. The difference in freedoms is becoming ever more clear. But this is where I get annoyed, because I’m not bothered about interacting with unvaccinated people once I’ve had my 2nd dose. That was part of the point in being vaccinated...

So let’s say in the future would post rollout. Would people generally avoid interacting with unvaccinated family & friends? If a bar welcomes the unvaxxed would you decline entering?

But this is where I get annoyed, because I’m not bothered about interacting with unvaccinated people once I’ve had my 2nd dose

Bit what if you have unvaccinated children … would you put them at risk?

Lei8
I think by definition lockdowns, restrictions and Covid are synonymous because lockdowns and restrictions are focused on reducing the spread of Covid in the hope that eventually restrictions, vaccinations, infection rates and opportunities to mutate will be reduced to the point that Covid is under control within the population.
Normal life or and approximation of it will not resume until that happens.
Also you talk about hatred and vitriol directed at anti vaxxers but in the same breath you say vaccinated people are selfish and that people only ever do anything for themselves.
If that is truly your opinion on human nature then your observation of the division between the vaccinated and unvaccinated can hardly be a surprise

@Lei8133

Also, we say ‘vaccination is the only way out of the pandemic’ and I wonder how many of us see freedom to live life in a pre-covid way/end lockdowns & restrictions and less cases of covid as synonymous, because lockdown and restrictions have been associated with the pandemic.

The choice to vaccinate is entirely selfish and I think we have to stop ‘looking down at people from our high horses’ telling them what they should be doing. How many people donate to oxfam?... of every earning adult in richer countries donated a small sum monthly we could likely end poverty in 3rd world countries... do we do it? No, cos it matters very little to us. But I can imagine if we were told that poverty was infections and the only way to prevent ourselves falling prey and our loved ones was for every earning adult to donate to a fund.... we would be all over it. people only ever do anything for themselves

people only ever do anything for themselves

That is absolute nonsense. While we may have an interior, selfish motive for doing something (e.g. to make ourselves feel good) that does not mean we can't have complex motivations that include wanting to benefit the greater good.

The choice to vaccinate is entirely selfish and I think we have to stop ‘looking down at people from our high horses’ telling them what they should be doing.

This is also nonsense. Sure, for most of us, the primary motivation for vaccination is selfish. However, for many of us, we also recognise that as members of society, we have a responsibility towards the smooth functioning of society and towards the less fortunate in society. That means we may have to do things that are not always necessarily of benefit to us directly but do benefit us indirectly through a societal structure that works.

I do not want segregation I find that idea frightening but I do wish people who have no medical reason for not getting a vaccine would get one especially when the science is so strong.
With human beings I do believe they can be selfless and altruistic but I think in survival mode - ie in the threat of a pandemic I think human behaviour becomes more primal and that is why this particular question creates animosity.

[quote Lei8133]@CaraherEIL you’re right. The difference in freedoms is becoming ever more clear. But this is where I get annoyed, because I’m not bothered about interacting with unvaccinated people once I’ve had my 2nd dose. That was part of the point in being vaccinated...

So let’s say in the future would post rollout. Would people generally avoid interacting with unvaccinated family & friends? If a bar welcomes the unvaxxed would you decline entering?[/quote]
In answer to ur question yes i am avoiding my unvaccinated brother and gf becuasey daughter goes to a special needs nursery where they have a lot of medically vulnerable children who would die if caught covid. So im not risking my daughter passing it on at nursery. Im also being careful when out. My brother is beliving antivax nonsense, his actions have consequences like all non vaccinated people

I have scientist friends who r part of the vaccine making process i would rather belive them on if its safe than some random person making videos on youtube like my brother is doing.

If you have ECV children I think you will inevitably avoid unvaccinated people as much as possible because everyday living is focused on reducing their risk, and the consequences of exposure could be terrifyingly serious.
I think your living circumstances can make it hard to listen to people turning down the opportunity to safeguard their health and protect the health of the vulnerable.
They have that choice but it can seem incomprehensible to those who are genuinely terrified for the well being of a vulnerable person.
I think there is just a different level of fear for a child you are trying desperately to protect, being lectured on selfishness by someone who will not have a vaccine that could could contribute to saving the life of a child like mine is hard to stomach.
But if reason, science and common sense won’t do it, I don’t expect sentiment to make a difference either.
The idea that then anti vaxxers find it annoying to anticipate that they might have to live with more restrictions when they choose not to be vaccinated does seem too much.
Ok, don’t have the vaccine but don’t expect the freedoms that vaccinated people have. I don’t think you can expect both. I think that is when the behaviour becomes supremely self serving.