To not understand the vaccine drama

[Lei8133]

I am so confused by all this anti-vaxxer hate and mandating the COVID vaccine for certain professions extra. IMO if you have had the vaccine (which I have, well I’m awaiting my 2nd dose) surely people who haven’t had the jab pose no increased threat to us. The only people they cause harm to are fellow anti-vaxxers and other unvaccinated people for whom the risk is always present.

Surely whether we like it or not it is a personal choice whether you receive the vaccine or not and the freedom of choice is something we should all advocate for whether we agree with the decision or not surely?!? I just don’t get it and the divide it is causes amongst friends, family and the greater society is saddening. AIBU?!?! If so can someone explain to me how unvaccinated relatives and friends are potentially harmful to me despite having received the jab?

[quote Lei8133]@VerticalHorizon thanks so easy to be misconstrued on here. I agree with you completely it can sound harsh but it’s 100% true[/quote]
People can have a difference of opinion, sometimes quite radical differences, but both have perfectly decent motives and neither be an idiot.

And they can agree on a few things too! ;-)

@ddl1

What about the freedom to have a healthy life? You don't have freedom when you're dead. You don't have much if you're chronically ill with long Covid or long-term ill-effects of other diseases.

Being vaccinated does not make me automatically healthy just as an unvaccinated person is not automatically ill...

Of course you don’t have freedom when dead or with a long term illness... but that lack of freedom wasn’t imposed on you by others it was a result of something that happened to you that was beyond anyone’s control... come on now!

P.S. to correct even myself... who knows what happens when you die, possibly you experience the most freedom we as humans have ever known...

Being vaccinated does not make me automatically healthy just as an unvaccinated person is not automatically ill...

And speeding doesn't always cause a car accident, and those who don't speed are not automatically protected from car accidents. But speeding makes car accidents MORE LIKELY, and therefore is seen as objectionable and in many places is prohibited.

Of course you don’t have freedom when dead or with a long term illness... but that lack of freedom wasn’t imposed on you by others it was a result of something that happened to you that was beyond anyone’s control... come on now!

If my death or illness was caused by my needing medical treatment, and the doctor or nurse or careworker refusing to have a vaccine, then yes, it was imposed on me by others. Just as if I'm dead or severely injured as a result of an accident caused by someone speeding, it was imposed on me by the speeder. A deprivation of freedom doesn't have to be imposed by the Government to be an avoidable imposition. Not everything can be avoided, but some things can with goodwill!

“The vaccine is the only way out of this pandemic....unless you count letting it run rampant and watching people die.” anyway…
You’ve no idea of knowing who has had the vaccine or who hasn’t. Immunity won’t last forever in any case. Just get on with things, I’m sure there will be something just as, if not more deadly soon like I dunno, cancer .

Cancer isn't transmissible though!
That is the problem - lots of things are deadlier, but because of a high transmission rate, Covid ends up reaching millions of people, thus kills a fair few along the way, just by sheer percentages.

@ddl1 I think you missed the point I was trying to make... you asked the question “what about the right to a healthy life?” How does being vaccinated equate to being healthy? Please explain. The speeding car analogy doesn’t help to answer or illustrate this.

You also said that being dead/Long term Sick you have no freedom. Surely, the cause of death/sickness is irrelevant. It still remains that the loss of freedom comes from being dead/sick not the cause.

I think in this particular argument, yes the loss of freedom being an avoidable imposition only comes from the loss of freedom imposed by the government. IMO

Just get on with things, I’m sure there will be something just as, if not more deadly soon like I dunno, cancer

Oncologists are reporting lots of patients presenting much later. It sounds like a massive issue

10,000 less starting treatment in the last year. And that's just breast cancer. Very worrying

www.msn.com/en-gb/health/medical/10000-fewer-patients-began-breast-cancer-treatment-over-past-year-study-shows/ar-AAL2E37

My DP isn't allowed the vaccine for medical reasons.

If he goes into a room with 10 vaccinated people, he'll almost certainly be fine. If he goes into a room with 10 people, where even half of them are unvaccinated, he could have a big problem.

The more people who are vaccinated, the less risk there is to the vulnerable.

You’ve no idea of knowing who has had the vaccine or who hasn’t
Good point. How will people manage that exactly?

But does your DP realise the vaccine reduces transmission but doesn’t prevent it? I don’t know why people think the vaccine works this way - if your DH is that worried then sadly vaccines are the answer. We need better treatments for a start.

@WhatIsThisPlease don’t you mean if he goes into a room with 10 vaccinated peeps who have tested positive for covid and then 10 unvaccinated peeps who have tested positive for covid.

I can see this sort of unconscious creeping insinuation that suggests not being vaccinated equals sick/unhealthy/threat. But they are only a threat if they have covid.

@Neron

You’ve no idea of knowing who has had the vaccine or who hasn’t Good point. How will people manage that exactly?

Unvaccinated people will be the ones sat outside noses pressed up against the glass. Having been denied access to any indoor spaces! Lmao

@Anna727b

Great that you got the jab but YABU for a few reasons:

1. The greater the number of unvaccinated people, the more chance of variants arising- some of these variants will be more resistant to the vaccine- meaning the vaccines may cease to work!

1. If a vaccine provides 80% protection against serious illness then you have a 20% chance when vaccinated of falling seriously ill IF you catch it.

1. For people with certain conditions (on certain immunosuppressants or with certain types of cancer) the vaccination is less effective so that even when fully vaccinated they have a higher chance of contracting Covid and of serious illness or death.

1. Some people have medical conditions, which mean they have been told by their consultants that they cannot be vaccinated despite wanting to be.

1. As long as eejits refuse the vaccination, the virus continues to spread, the NHS doesn't operate as it should for all other non-covid medical care so a lot more people die from avoidable deaths.

I don't think point 2) is correct.

Firstly 80% effective is against a large number of people, but it doesn't mean 20% won't be protected. But even if that was the case, it doesn't mean 1 in 5 people who contract the disease without vaccination will fall seriously ill. It simply means those without vaccination will not have any additional protection, and thus more likely to be ill, but it's not 1 in 5.

I think you missed the point I was trying to make... you asked the question “what about the right to a healthy life?” How does being vaccinated equate to being healthy? Please explain. The speeding car analogy doesn’t help to answer or illustrate this

Being vaccinated increases your CHANCES of staying healthy. I suppose if you don't believe that it does, the rest of it it is irrelevant. But there's a lot of evidence that it does.

You also said that being dead/Long term Sick you have no freedom. Surely, the cause of death/sickness is irrelevant. It still remains that the loss of freedom comes from being dead/sick not the cause.

Of course the cause is relevant!!! Otherwise, why are murder and manslaughter treated as crimes?

Being vaccinated increases your chance of being healthy? Not if you suffer a brain clot, period changes or heart inflammation

Being vaccinated increases your chance of being healthy? Not if you suffer a brain clot, period changes or heart inflammation

At any rate, it increases your chances of not getting the diseases against which you're vaccinated! Which, at least in the case of Covid, is far more likely to cause brain clots, heart inflammation and other serious consequences.

Just as aving a roof over your head increases your chances of staying healthy. Not if the roof suddenly falls in on top of you! But the risk of that is far smaller than the risk of serious consequences if you don't have a roof over your head.

Well because we haven’t full data from the MHRA we can’t work it out but no, for certain people the risk from the vaccine for clots is actually higher. And that’s before you add up the plethora of other issues

The only ones I've seen being vocal about it at least that won't get a vaccine are the ones that take drugs. I find it odd that they won't have a vaccine that has been medically approved because it might harm them, but they are happy to take god knows what off Kenny down the road.

Each to their own, but if they get denied air travel or access to stuff, that's on their head. Can't complain when they've got a way out but just won't take it. It's the same for other countries already isn't it, need to have had certain vaccinations before you enter.

This won't be the only vaccine either. This is likely to be an annual thing, although that may only be for the elderly and the vulnerable. The rest of us might get away with just this lot.

Unvaccinated people will be the ones sat outside noses pressed up against the glass. Having been denied access to any indoor spaces!
Nah...clearly the unvaccinated will be easy to spot because they'll resemble the walking dead...the deadly biohazard that they are

I've recently met a midwife who's an anti-vaxxer. That shocked me as she works for the NHS. I honestly expect NHS hospital care staff to be vaccinated, it's part of their job to be mainstream medicine.

What is an “anti-vaxxer midwife”? You mean she is someone who has likely had all her vaccines but doesn’t belief the narrative that covid is more risk to her than a vaccine with ever increasing risks of clots or menstrual changes or whatever? Why should she?

@Neron Oh of course, Lool. How could I have missed that!

@ddl1 you should re-read your statements and my responses. Being vaccinated MAY increase your chances of being healthy but does not constitute health. Ergo an unvaccinated person does not impeach on your freedom to a healthy life. If you consider them to then their impeachment is no greater than that of having access to unhealthy food. - It’s there, poses no direct threat but if you eat it then it can be damaging to you, however not necessarily, depending on how much you eat and how frequently etc.

Again with the whole no freedom when dead comment - re-read what we’ve said. How does a death from covid restrict your freedom more than a death from old age? It doesn’t because the cause didn’t take your freedom away... the death did.

If that doesn’t make sense to you forget I ever ‘@‘ you.

[quote Lei8133]@Neron Oh of course, Lool. How could I have missed that!

@ddl1 you should re-read your statements and my responses. Being vaccinated MAY increase your chances of being healthy but does not constitute health. Ergo an unvaccinated person does not impeach on your freedom to a healthy life. If you consider them to then their impeachment is no greater than that of having access to unhealthy food. - It’s there, poses no direct threat but if you eat it then it can be damaging to you, however not necessarily, depending on how much you eat and how frequently etc.

Again with the whole no freedom when dead comment - re-read what we’ve said. How does a death from covid restrict your freedom more than a death from old age? It doesn’t because the cause didn’t take your freedom away... the death did.

If that doesn’t make sense to you forget I ever ‘@‘ you.[/quote]
That has to be one of the most ridiculous comparisons yet.

I can choose what I eat and when. I cannot choose whether unvaccinated people infect me or not.

A much more reasonable analogy would be someone driving while on their phone. They may get away with it and do no harm. However, they may crash in to me and kill me.

How does a death from covid restrict your freedom more than a death from old age? It doesn’t because the cause didn’t take your freedom away... the death did.

But a death from old age is ultimately unpreventable. A death from Covid may be preventable. THAT is the difference. Otherwise you could just as well say that if you're killed by a drunk driver, that is no different from death from old age, as you're just as dead; and therefore people should not be required to reduce their risk of endangering you by refraining from drink-driving.

I am not saying that vaccination should be mandatory for everyone. I am saying that it should be mandatory specifically for those who work closely with people who have a very high risk of serious illness or death if they get Covid.