To think that WFH will divide the rich/poor more

[PipedownSue]

There's no denying that most WFH roles tend to be higher paid in comparison to ones where you have to be in a set work place. Just looking at my friends, waitress, HCA, admin assistant, receptionist, retail roles are all dependent on being in a workplace rather than at home. My role allows some home working (25%) whilst my manager does more like 75% at home because our roles differ.
The problem I see with this is that through the pandemic those who have had to work outside the home have been pushed to the limit. Food retailers like my DP have been working flat out, at one point he said that every week was like December because of how busy they were (with restaurants and pubs shut.) I have been working throughout and have worked 50 hour weeks covering for staff absences, those who are shielding, isolating etc. In the NHS we are constantly playing catch up and now most of my colleagues are working longer hours, working to cover colleagues who have left and haven't been replaced.
This isn't a woe is me post but if you compare lower paid roles where the employee continues to pay for wraparound childcare, public transport or car costs, parking, food in the workplace etc to those where someone is on full pay WFH with the added benefits of more time at home to clean, cook, exercise, family time etc. I just a society made up of depressed, burned out, unhealthy, poor people struggling with stagnant wages and an increase in cost of living and those who are well off, happy, healthy and get to live in a little bubble of privilege. Like it is now, but worse!

@SecondCityShark so what's the difference between hiring someone in Poland and hiring someone in the U.K. who is from Poland and has lived here two years? Both are fluent in English. I think a lot of importance is placed unnecessarily on 'nuances' of the British language. We'll all be replaced by machines anyway.

Well I often have difficulty communicating with non-native speakers when I have to call an overseas call centre. Recently I had to physically go into a Three store to speak to someone because the call centre didn’t understand what my problem was, even after I spoke to several different people. I don’t want to struggle with basic communication when I’m trying to get a problem solved. I don’t want to be given irrelevant scripted answers. If it was anything more complex than my phone bill it would be a nightmare. So I can’t see complex jobs being outsourced.

@Tealightsandd - I think your later points are about whether wfh is a good solution overall, which is another question. The suitable housing obviously is to do with the social divide, but - along with the domestic abuse point - I see this more as a duty on employers to ensure all employees have access to suitable workplaces. Wfh works for some, but simply closing offices entirely ignores the needs of many (probably most) workers and is not the right approach either.

But for people who can comfortably work from home and prefer doing so, there is a question about whether there is a moral argument for saying they shouldn’t.

@SecondCityShark

So your boss wouldn't employ a migrant? Someone new to the UK. That sounds like discrimination to me.

Of course he bloody would. What an idiotic thing to say. He's a migrant himself. But he wouldn't hire a migrant in my line of work unless they could match my skill set with colloquial and formal British language use and British (multi-demographic) psychology.

But there are plenty of other roles in the company that he'd happily fill with migrant workers yes because he's all for equal opportunities.

You seem out for an argument, had a rough day? 🤔

You said it yourself. He would only employ someone in your role who has an excellent native command of English plus the cultural intelligence that only comes from living in a country for a long time.

So he's presumably discriminating against recent migrants.

Argument? I'm giving my opinions on an opinion thread. My day was good btw. Less humid than yesterday, which was a relief. Much more productive.

I’ve been wfh for the past year and honestly, I’ve done the least work I’ve ever done in my life. I get to have a 2 hour nap in the afternoon most days. I realise this isn’t everyone’s experience but I don’t recognise the working flat out and never switching off people speak of. I’m basically being paid the same salary to do about 4 hours work a day and have more time pottering about doing my laundry, walking the dog, nipping out for coffees with friends.

Same here. Don’t tell my boss but I’ve been nowhere near as productive since working from home

[quote PipedownSue]@SecondCityShark so what's the difference between hiring someone in Poland and hiring someone in the U.K. who is from Poland and has lived here two years? Both are fluent in English. I think a lot of importance is placed unnecessarily on 'nuances' of the British language. We'll all be replaced by machines anyway.[/quote]
This

@Tobermorie with respect, we function the way companies want us to function. Think about banks, no one wanted banks to shut, everyone wanted to be able to walk up to the counter and pay their cheque in. Banks said 'no you will bank the way we want you to bank' now my nan has online banking and the local branches are all shut. We customers have very little autonomy in how companies operate and for all the noise that people make about leaving companies who treat workers/ customers badly few of us actually do boycott or change/ leave.

so what's the difference between hiring someone in Poland and hiring someone in the U.K. who is from Poland and has lived here two years?
In my experience it’s the difference between speaking to someone who actually works for the company in the UK and knows the departments and staff and products, and actually has the power to help you... vs speaking to someone who works for a third party employer in Poland to whom the work has been outsourced, and they basically have a script and no real power to help you.

so what's the difference between hiring someone in Poland and hiring someone in the U.K. who is from Poland and has lived here two years? Both are fluent in English.

In my field of work, a big difference. Can you imagine adverts on TV, film scripts, TV scripts, packaging instructions, magazines, books etc. being written by somebody with second language English and two years experience of living in the UK?

It's not impossible, but it's unlikely. Like, for example, I wouldn't try to write a French advert or a German film script, despite being able to get by in both languages.

Those nuances you dismiss are crucial for connecting with audiences.

@Draculahhh

I think all those who state that their jobs can be easily done from home permanenly need to have a think about what that means. If you can do it remotely, so can a person in India on half your wage.

There is also the fact that equally educated and fluent in English residents of cheaper parts of the country (e.g the North and the Midlands) can also do the WFH job. No more need for the London weighting,

There is also the fact that equally educated and fluent in English residents of cheaper parts of the country (e.g the North and the Midlands) can also do the WFH job. No more need for the London weighting,

Now that I agree with. More opportunities for the rest of the country which is a great thing.

[quote AntiWorkBrigade]@Tealightsandd - I think your later points are about whether wfh is a good solution overall, which is another question. The suitable housing obviously is to do with the social divide, but - along with the domestic abuse point - I see this more as a duty on employers to ensure all employees have access to suitable workplaces. Wfh works for some, but simply closing offices entirely ignores the needs of many (probably most) workers and is not the right approach either.

But for people who can comfortably work from home and prefer doing so, there is a question about whether there is a moral argument for saying they shouldn’t.[/quote]
That's the thing that will increase the divide. Widen inequality and limit access to opportunity. Many many people don't have the privilege of housing that is suitable for WFH.

It's also such a rubbish way for young people to start out in the world of work. Stuck in their childhood bedrooms.

With domestic abuse. A perpetrator is hardly going to give their partner/spouse the option of going to an office, if there's a choice of WFH. They like to isolate the victim, who will be made to tell their boss they choose WFH.

Separate from the above. As a customer and client, WFH has been shitty lowered standard of service. And a data privacy concern.

@SecondCityShark that's a very unusual example and I would agree that nuances do matter in scriptwriting.
The more every day jobs I had in mind were things like ringing the local hospital for an appointment as I did today. Gave my nhs number and she gave me an appointment. I have no idea if she was at home, in my city or had ever been to the hospital. If I come through to the wrong department they don't say 'oh you want Debbie in ultrasounds' they just put you back through to the main switchboard, it's maddening! That job really could be done by anyone anywhere.

@SecondCityShark

There is also the fact that equally educated and fluent in English residents of cheaper parts of the country (e.g the North and the Midlands) can also do the WFH job. No more need for the London weighting,

Now that I agree with. More opportunities for the rest of the country which is a great thing.

Somehow doubt that people in the north or the Midlands are so happy about being 'levelled up'. As has been seen in several threads this week.

People are beginning to discover that 'investment'' and people moving to their areas means house prices going up...out of their reach. They're a long way off the capital of homelessness (London) but it's hardly a positive thing, as they're finding out.

that's a very unusual example and I would agree that nuances do matter in scriptwriting.

They do.

oh you want Debbie in ultrasounds' they just put you back through to the main switchboard, it's maddening! That job really could be done by anyone anywhere

Completely agree. I did say that earlier, that those sorts of jobs would definitely come under threat. I'd be concerned if I was in data entry for example. Anybody anywhere could be doing that.

I predict that the social shock waves caused by covid are going to get bigger over the next decade. Big social change under way.

In my field of work, a big difference. Can you imagine adverts on TV, film scripts, TV scripts, packaging instructions, magazines, books etc. being written by somebody with second language English and two years experience of living in the UK?

We have GPs, surgeons, nurses. People in jobs where lives literally depend on them. Writing prescriptions, needing absolute perfect communication with their colleagues. Many are newly arrived to the UK. And they and their colleagues (and patients) manage.

A lot of the comments on this thread from people who WFH have come across as 'crying in my Benz' type sentiments. Given that we saw during the height of the pandemic how being able to stay in your home and away from others could be the difference between life and death, I find it pretty crass. WFH has its own set of challenges, but in focusing on those challenges it obfuscates the uncomfortable truth that Covid illuminated: some lives were treated as far more expendable than others, and those tended to be the poorest in our society.

As a fairly well-paid WFH professional, I benefited from delivery drivers still operating, from the fact that the admin workers were still going into the physical office to pick up mail and answer phones and queries. I had a choice. These people did not, if they wanted to keep earning a living. And yes, we know there may be a few minimum jobs where people can WFH but these tend to be few and far between, and focusing on those outliers again obfuscates the fact that not only do the wealthy have far more rights at work, but in fact directly benefit from the fact that others don't.

Big social change under way.

It is if people let it. Other countries are going back to more of a normality.

About 30% of the staff at my workplace are unable to work from home due to the nature of their jobs.

Interestingly enough, I had a conversation with someone today who pointed out (amongst other inequalities) that those who can work from home will be able to holiday in 'amber' countries and work through their 10 day isolation period afterwards.

Those who cannot work from home, would have to take 10 extra days annual leave.

I hadn't thought about that at all to be honest.

Somehow doubt that people in the north or the Midlands are so happy about being 'levelled up'. As has been seen in several threads this week.

Well, massive apologies for having my own opinions and whatnot. Where I live has become more and more run down. Holiday makers don't see what a deadzone the place is come September. I feel like getting cash into areas like these might have positive effects as well as ill.

I'm not deaf to the concerns of others, and those are valid concerns. But the other eventuality is that some of these villages eventually die a death because all talent moves out as soon as it can (in pre-covid times, to run to London, where the streets are paved with gold yada yada).

It's also the case that more locals will be able to apply for national level jobs if they want them and are qualified. I know plenty of people who are stuck in jobs that they are way overqualified for, simply because they want to stay in this area. WFH gives those people the opportunity to progress their careers.

And I'm one of them btw. I live in the country, bagged a new job with a London company halfway through last year.

We have GPs, surgeons, nurses. People in jobs where lives literally depend on them. Writing prescriptions, needing absolute perfect communication with their colleagues. Many are newly arrived to the UK. And they and their colleagues (and patients) manage.

We'll have to agree to disagree because, to be frank, I don't think you understand me or my work. And I'm not going to try to make you understand me, it's half twelve at night and you're the sort that always has an answer, regardless of how ill informed that answer is.

So yeah, peace out.

those who can work from home will be able to holiday in 'amber' countries and work through their 10 day isolation period afterwards.

There are so many privileges to working from home, there really are. To my mind, those able to work from home are extremely fortunate.

Well, massive apologies for having my own opinions and whatnot.

Why apologise? There's no debate without differing views. Personally I don't feel the need to live in an echo chamber. Very dull that would be full of clones.

Goodnight

@SecondCityShark

those who can work from home will be able to holiday in 'amber' countries and work through their 10 day isolation period afterwards.

There are so many privileges to working from home, there really are. To my mind, those able to work from home are extremely fortunate.

We even agree. On some things.

@SecondCityShark

those who can work from home will be able to holiday in 'amber' countries and work through their 10 day isolation period afterwards.

There are so many privileges to working from home, there really are. To my mind, those able to work from home are extremely fortunate.

Yes, I wish I'd have taken more notice of the conversation really as he's a union rep and he listed out a few other inequalities too.