In thinking being a SAHM is work?

[morepizza]

Work is defined as:

noun
noun: work; plural noun: works; plural noun: the works
1 1. 
activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.

I think this includes SAH parental duties. I know a lot of people don't agree with me. What else would it be called?

But some of us have experience of both and are saying, in our experience, that sahp is not as much work.

I have experience of both, and in my experience it was the other way round, which is hardly surprising as we all have different children and jobs.

@TheMoth I guess it really depends on so many circumstances of your life as @Lulalu pointed out. I guess if you have experience of doing both, the most you can say is for YOU being a SAHP was easier based on your circumstances. I maintain that it is completely out of order for working parents to say that SAHP as a group do less work, and working parents do it all just in less time.

I'd think being a paediatric surgeon or oncologist would be harder

Yes, and lots of people do those jobs and then go home and do what SAHPs do as well.

@TheMoth

And the reason childminders/ nurseries keep kids busy all day is cos they can't really have 2 hour lunches with cbeebies on or go to a mate's house and let the kids play for a bit. Although one of my cm was v partial to giving the kids screens before school.

In real life, I don't know any sahp who think of it as work.

🤣🤣🤣 I have never whilst caring for my toddler managed a two hour lunch with ceebebies on. As for going round to a kates to watch the kids Play? Still an enormous amount of work with toddlers. At nurseries and childminders they have kids playing together- still a lot of work. I don’t know anyone in real life who would say looking after a toddler is not work.

Few job would be harder than looking after 5 kids under 8, some with SEN and little help with from family.

Few jobs will be easier than looking after one child, a father than helps in the evenings, family to go to during the day.

As a whole, I do believe that most average jobs are harder than most average SAHP situations, but who cares when in the end, what matters is individual circumstances.

Maybe that's the issue- parents who can't ignore their kids for a bit. The people I know who make a meal of parenting, are the ones who have to be engaging with their kids all the time. I had a v clingy, velcro baby who turned into an utter twat of a toddler. But they're only toddlers for a brief period of time. And they go to bed early. And yes, some don't sleep. But try doing a full time job with a kid who didn't sleep for years, then coming home and doing all the house bollocks.

Yes, and lots of people do those jobs and then go home and do what SAHPs do as well.

And many have a partner who is a SAHP.

Of course many people (women) have a partner in a similar job, but it does women a disservice to turn domestic choices into a competition that just ends up devaluing all women whatever their choices.

Why is this thread still some big competition about who has it hardest?! Read the OP. It wasn't even about that! It was simply "is it work"...and really that as another poster put it as largely about semantics and your definition of work.

Haven't read the full thread OP, but in answer to your first post, yes. It is work. If you're a Nanny and you care for children, that's a job you get paid for. If you're a Mum and you care for your own children that's a job that you don't get paid for. Simples.

People who work away from the home pay someone to care for their children. Then, when they come home, they care for their own children without getting paid for it, just like SAHP.

Everyone can compare jobs and play that whole: 'mine is harder than yours' game, but when it comes down to even comparing jobs, it will be very individual, both the health and disposition of the person. And so it is with SAHP vs, working out of home parents.

Both come with challenges, both come with rewards, both have moments you'd happily walk away forever, both are hopefully your own choice and not somebody else's.

It’s not being superior @Bizawit it’s just that it’s difficult to have perspective when you’re at the coal face of pre-schooler hell. So many posters on here are comparing their pre-kid working experience with being a parent. Sure - working with no dependents is mostly easier than parenting but so many of the SAHMs on this thread seem to forget that working parents leave their paid job then do parenting for the remaining 16 hours of the day and then have weekends and holidays and we’ve mostly all been on Mat leave. We know what SAHMs do - as we do that in our free time.

Modern parenting seems to be increasingly a competition to make it seem way harder than it actually is and many mums approach it like a paid job - possibly in an attempt to prove its worth - trying to cram the days with activities and opportunities. That’s pretty thankless when your “client” is an uncooperative toddler. When you have older kids you realise that you don’t need to be a superstar parent, just good enough and that as long as the kid is safe, fed and nurtured then the hype surrounding performance parenting is just crap to make women feel bad.

"Parents get help with CC, why not the option for SAHP also for the period that they are caring for young DC"

Given the very low rate of Carers allowance, I think that needs increasing first.

Parents get help with CC, why not the option for SAHP also for the period that they are caring for young DC

I don’t think we should assist with childcare costs and certainly don’t think we should pay people to not work or do a few hours because they choose too. It’s a choice to have children, no one has to have any.
However if there needs to be some government help then it’s better aimed at childcare than paying people to parent. Far better to use to get people to become tax payers than not.

“But some of us have experience of both and are saying, in our experience, that sahp is not as much work.”

What an utter nonsense. No you don’t have experience of “both,” unless you happen to have worked in every possible job in the world; parented every type of child and combination of children and been married to every possible husband in every type of economic situation.

Then and only then, you are in a position to make a sweeping generalisation such as this. Otherwise, you are merely talking about yourself in very specific circumstances which will apply to practically nobody else.

@Snookie00

It’s not being superior *@Bizawit* it’s just that it’s difficult to have perspective when you’re at the coal face of pre-schooler hell. So many posters on here are comparing their pre-kid working experience with being a parent. Sure - working with no dependents is mostly easier than parenting but so many of the SAHMs on this thread seem to forget that working parents leave their paid job then do parenting for the remaining 16 hours of the day and then have weekends and holidays and we’ve mostly all been on Mat leave. We know what SAHMs do - as we do that in our free time.

Modern parenting seems to be increasingly a competition to make it seem way harder than it actually is and many mums approach it like a paid job - possibly in an attempt to prove its worth - trying to cram the days with activities and opportunities. That’s pretty thankless when your “client” is an uncooperative toddler. When you have older kids you realise that you don’t need to be a superstar parent, just good enough and that as long as the kid is safe, fed and nurtured then the hype surrounding performance parenting is just crap to make women feel bad.

Well I agree with all this!

But I don’t think it should be about pitting working parents again being a SAHP. Both are hard in their different ways, both are work. I definitely get in that in some circumstances being a SAHP is probably way easier than being a working parent- depending on one’s level of wealth and other factors, but it can also work both ways..

“Many women do a lot of entertaining, for instance. Their role is to organise pretty much everything outside of the husband’s job. If your children are going for some of the most competitive schools in the U.K, many women put a lot of research, effort and time into this. You could end up with several children all in different schools, given how competitive schools are in parts of London, for example. Families live hectic lifestyles and the kids do a lot. It makes sense for someone to be at home to mentally / emotionally / practically hold it all together otherwise it can all fall apart.”

So you really think working parents aren’t doing the London school prep thing? It’s something that they do around work. My nephew got an academic scholarship to one of the top day schools while both parents were working. It is an utter nonsense to pretend it is so much work someone has to be a sahp to manage school admissions.

No, I’m not saying one parent has to be at home to manage school admissions at all. That was just one example of the type of thing a SAHP might be focusing on at a given time. If you have a dyslexic child, you might go on a course or be researching ways to help them. There are so many things you might do, which you wouldn’t have time for otherwise. All sorts of things come up with kids and it’s constantly changing.

Imagine if you have four children who are any combinations of keen dancers, footballers, gymnasts or whatever, this is likely to involve a lot of ferrying around in the late afternoons. I have a friend whose daughter was in the West End - it’s a lot. It’s hard to find nannies who are prepared to do all this by themselves, to be honest. Also, maybe you just want to do it yourself? The days are spent getting absolutely everything sorted - and yes, maybe getting some downtime / exercise too - because from 3/4pm you are flat out. This also means at the weekend, you are not shopping or catching up with anything. There’s no medals for driving yourself into the ground. Not all husbands are even there, let alone doing “their share” (however you define that). Some husbands will moan if dinner is just something quick you rustled up when you got in. Not all husbands work predictable hours - for mine there was no such thing, ever. He just does what he needs to do as and when. There’s so many factors that can come into play, that’s all I’m saying.

@Lulalu

No, I’m not saying one parent has to be at home to manage school admissions at all. That was just one example of the type of thing a SAHP might be focusing on at a given time. If you have a dyslexic child, you might go on a course or be researching ways to help them. There are so many things you might do, which you wouldn’t have time for otherwise. All sorts of things come up with kids and it’s constantly changing.

Imagine if you have four children who are any combinations of keen dancers, footballers, gymnasts or whatever, this is likely to involve a lot of ferrying around in the late afternoons. I have a friend whose daughter was in the West End - it’s a lot. It’s hard to find nannies who are prepared to do all this by themselves, to be honest. Also, maybe you just want to do it yourself? The days are spent getting absolutely everything sorted - and yes, maybe getting some downtime / exercise too - because from 3/4pm you are flat out. This also means at the weekend, you are not shopping or catching up with anything. There’s no medals for driving yourself into the ground. Not all husbands are even there, let alone doing “their share” (however you define that). Some husbands will moan if dinner is just something quick you rustled up when you got in. Not all husbands work predictable hours - for mine there was no such thing, ever. He just does what he needs to do as and when. There’s so many factors that can come into play, that’s all I’m saying.

Your world sounds terribly 1950s to me. Husbands complaining about their wives not putting a suitable dinner on the table. Who wants to live that kind of life now?

When it's the wife earning big bucks and paying for all the private school fees, I doubt that many husbands feel obliged to spend their lives entertaining and turning their children into projects.

Also “hard work” means different things to different people. Some might think a job where you don’t get a second to go to the loo is the definition of hard work. But if overall, you enjoy what you do, it probably won’t seem so “hard.” Some jobs are “hard work” not because they’re that busy, but because they have become boring to you and obviously boredom can be hard work too, psychologically.

I couldn’t say whether being at work was “harder work” for me than being at home. It was just totally different - maybe harder in some ways but easier in other ways? But admittedly, when I was working it was pre-children, so I’ve never experienced the juggling many women experience. I personally would find all the juggling “harder work” because I have 4 DC, but also I can totally see how some people would need to go to work, not just for the money, but for a mental change. They do say change is as good as a break!

It’s not really what you do, I don’t think, SAHM or in paid work. More about whether you are emotionally and psychologically suited to it. Also how supported you are in whatever role / roles you take on.

@Lulalu yeah it all seems very 1950’s and that was when divorce rates were very low. I don’t know why someone would construct that type of lifestyle for themselves looking at the divorce rates now. That whole socialite lifestyle could quickly fall apart if you split from the high earning DH.

Demanding husband who want meals on table at dinner . Not sure why anybody would be accommodating that type of partner especially if being at him in general is as demanding as you say and is just as hard as working. Presumably they should share all the household chores if life admin is as hard as working?

(Before anyone claims this is a dig at SAHM I’m talking about divorce rates in general obviously WOHM and SAHM can divorce).

Also you say ‘many’ women when probably less than 1% of women in the U.K. live like this.

Just because it isn’t necessary to do something for a family (eg researching schools, tutoring your kids, taking them to clubs), doesn’t mean that it is not work. Plenty of jobs in society are not necessary for survival - holidays, entertainment.

If a family decide it is important to spend more time helping kids with academic work and allowing them a greater choice of hobbies; then that is the work the family have chosen to do and someone has to do it. Wohp can do this as well but will not have as much time. All things being equal, a given person can achieve more in this specific area as sahp than wohp. However they may have drawbacks like less income, pension and possibly other non-tangible factors like role-modelling in a wohp role (if that is what the family value).

Yep. There’s a whole other can of worms when discussing whether being a SAHM is good/ detrimental in the long term for the woman concerned. Many of the SAHM by choice because their DH/DP has a veeeeery important job and needs pandered to whilst he opts out of parenting (rather than due to childcare cost or children with special/ additional needs) are putting all their eggs in one marriage basket.

I was struck by a comment much earlier in the thread that said being a SAHP was harder than employment because you get no bonuses and no reward.

There’s a weird theme running through this thread, where some parents are so vigorously trying to establish how hard and thankless parenting is that they tip into this weird place where it’s like their children were forced into their lives and they need society to recognise their selflessness in raising them.

I don’t think anybody thinks that having children is a breeze, of course it involves work and of course toddlers are tyrannical etc but the degree of martyrdom is really, really strange.

On the lists - I’m a solicitor and once had a parent laugh and say they basically had legal experience from negotiating with and persuading incalcitrant toddlers.

I don’t know what percentage of women are SAHM these days. Also, I would say there’s a significant difference between women who stay home for a few years for pre-schoolers and those who are SAH for a lot longer. Women who SAH long-term are less common nowadays for sure, but I would guess a lot of them are in a certain demographic and circumstances - ie very high-earner DH who works very long hours; travels a lot, etc. This us because it’s hard to work around all that when you have multiple children and if you don’t need the money, going to work for the sake if it and replacing yourself with a nanny may feel pointless and even a bit selfish, unless you absolutely live your job or need that for your mental health (which is fair enough). Another (connected) reason might be they are trailing spouses who move internationally a lot. It’s not common no, but nevertheless, there are areas where it’s kind if the norm.

I can see how it might sound a bit 1950s and it’s true to an extent because if you are at home, the rest of the family get used to that. Why would they not? So you do find that requests come your way that the DH or the kids wouldn’t bother asking if they knew you were at work, “of if you’re in such and such today, could you just pick up so and so...” This type of thing. This where a lot of your time can go, to be perfectly honest.

@Lulalu

I don’t know what percentage of women are SAHM these days. Also, I would say there’s a significant difference between women who stay home for a few years for pre-schoolers and those who are SAH for a lot longer. Women who SAH long-term are less common nowadays for sure, but I would guess a lot of them are in a certain demographic and circumstances - ie very high-earner DH who works very long hours; travels a lot, etc. This us because it’s hard to work around all that when you have multiple children and if you don’t need the money, going to work for the sake if it and replacing yourself with a nanny may feel pointless and even a bit selfish, unless you absolutely live your job or need that for your mental health (which is fair enough). Another (connected) reason might be they are trailing spouses who move internationally a lot. It’s not common no, but nevertheless, there are areas where it’s kind if the norm.

I can see how it might sound a bit 1950s and it’s true to an extent because if you are at home, the rest of the family get used to that. Why would they not? So you do find that requests come your way that the DH or the kids wouldn’t bother asking if they knew you were at work, “of if you’re in such and such today, could you just pick up so and so...” This type of thing. This where a lot of your time can go, to be perfectly honest.

It's interesting. I'm the high earner in our relationship. I doubt that it would occur to anyone to describe my DH as selfish for wanting to maintain a career of his own. There are so many double standards still.