In thinking being a SAHM is work?

[morepizza]

Work is defined as:

noun
noun: work; plural noun: works; plural noun: the works
1 1. 
activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.

I think this includes SAH parental duties. I know a lot of people don't agree with me. What else would it be called?

But some sahp’s do the additional share of housework/life admin that their partner should do and their partner does less. We don’t really assess how much of that extra stuff working people do. Single parents may do all of it, some have some support from relatives.

Plus - full-time jobs vary: I did one with about 46hrs plus unpaid overtime. And now 37hrs with time flexibility. Both are considered ‘full-time’. Similarly 3 under 5’s or 1 child with medical/special needs is different from 1 neurotypical, healthy pre school child.

I’d say sahp was easier for me than my long hours job but harder than my normal hours one.

In a job you get a peaceful commute to think and listen to music. You drink multiple cups of coffee while they’re still hot and eat your lunch uninterrupted. You don’t get climbed on or clawed at. You get to do intellectually stimulating tasks

But this is a very rose tinted view of work. What about the dull, draining tasks, difficult bosses, punishing deadlines, demanding clients, impossible targets? People aren’t going to offices for 8 hours a day to swan around and drink coffee. They get paid for a reason.

My friend is a SAHP. I sometimes envy her because I’d love to be at home but I understand it’s not as lovely as it looks and it must be lonely at the moment. What did infuriate me was when her child’s bubble closed she was saying how it’s no big deal and she was annoyed at other parents complaining. She had no understanding that a bubble closure for working parents would mean the stress of getting time off/having to ask work (again!) to leave early/start late, trying to squeeze work into other hours to free up time to get some home schooling done and then still be left with cleaning, meals etc There are benefits to working and I’m happy to admit that to her but to show such a lack of empathy to people who work infuriated me.

Yes it's work.
Biggest trick capitalism ever pulled.
All societies require a constant replenishing of young people to survive. Children are a necessity for social/species survival as well as a personal choice/biological urge.
Children require rearing. They die alarmingly often if not cared for and fail to contribute to the future working pool if not taught sufficient skills.
They cannot be bought fully formed as young adults or self teach and therefore have to be gestated and taught.
Someone has to provide this labour.
Men benefit from this just as much as women and are 50% responsible for creating the next generation.
Without it, society is doomed.
Yet because it's largely performed by women and has no immediate economic reward, it's become valueless economically.
This is such a con!

but also self-esteem and some weird need to seek validation from other people. It seems very needy and insecure. I don't understand why people can't just get on with their own lives.

These threads are almost always started by a SAHP. That is a pattern.

Totally agree and on page 6 it was a SAHM who referenced the MN Bingo.
No one else.
What does it bring to the debate?

I think caring for young DC is very hard work particularly if your partner is not involved.
Its one of those things that is hard and relentless if you dont get a break from it and its solely down to you.
This just wasnt acceptable to me and so I insisted this would be shared.( not possible for everyone I know)
There are also so many variables that make it harder/ easier -housing,money, support.
Parenting to me is hands on, sometimes hands off ( if DC at school/ CC or with the other parent) earning money, education, hanging out, fun, awful and sometimes involves far too many body fluids !
Sometimes its optimal and sometimes its about doing the best you can.
Way too much pressure on women to ensure their DC are happy all the time.
Thats not life,Im afraid sometimes life has its ups and downs.
I personally would agree with financial support for SAHP for under 5s.
Support is given for CC, why not for those who SAH ?
Also those parents who are not AH through choice - children who need additional care ?

The question of " SAHM are making themselves financially vulnerable" and it annoying those who say they are not.
Well perhaps we need NASAHMALT ?
I mean really, if it doesnt relate to you then why bang on about it?
You are financially ok, thats great but why try to shut down important debate about the issues that affect women?
Very smug and blinkered imho

You are financially ok, thats great but why try to shut down important debate about the issues that affect women?
Very smug and blinkered imho

You've completely ignored the example I gave of posters giving me incorrect information on state pensions whilst being a sahp. It's actually blinkered and smug to trot out these same old lines no matter what the context of the OP/discussion.

Totally agree and on page 6 it was a SAHM who referenced the MN Bingo.
No one else.
What does it bring to the debate?

It highlights it's the same old lines given out no matter what the context.

I personally would agree with financial support for SAHP for under 5s.
Support is given for CC, why not for those who SAH ?

Sorry what's Cc? I don't really understand what you are saying? The state should support women to sah financially? No I don't agree if that's what you mean. Instead the money should be spent on making childcare more affordable to give more parents choices.

Doing my job is wayyy easier than being stuck at home looking after my toddler all day. I currently do half/ half. When I’m feeling particularly tired or am sick, I’m so relieved if it’s a job day rather than a caring for my toddler day! Granted I do have a privileged job though.

These threads are such nonsense because posters simply project their own circumstances into the debate - eg. if they didn’t work they would be financially insecure therefore “SAHMs are financially insecure.” If they were SAH for five years they would never get back into their particular job, therefore “SAHMs will never get back into the workplace at the same level.” They didn’t cope well at home, therefore, “SAHMs are brain dead and their children are better off at nursery.”

But it’s utter nonsense because every woman and every family is so unique.

For some women, a £50k salary or whatever is neither here nor there if your husband is very wealthy / high earner / makes or loses that type of money on a daily basis. In such a financial context, it can actually feel selfish to go to work and not be around for the kids - if it’s money that would be negligible anyway in the context of your life. If you divorce, you know where you’ll stand financially, job or not. This is why, areas where houses are worth millions have a lot more SAHPs, frankly. It stands to reason because the fact is, having a SAHP is a choice not everyone can afford to make these days. It’s all relative.

Most of the country are the “squeezed middle” where two incomes are needed to buy a house and things like holidays etc. So it’s understandable that the majority of women who are in this type of scenario would see SAHP as a risky choice and one that makes women financially vulnerable. So women in this demographic (which is most women) project this as a given.

Some women are simply not cut out to be at home with young children and they know this full well. They wonder how other women could possibly do it and think maybe they were just a bit dull / non-aspirational / “lesser” to begin with. So because some women were bored / depressed / would rather be at work - they apply this to SAHP in general.

At the other end of the scale, some women on low paid jobs can’t afford childcare. So, unless they have family help, they have to get in with it until such a time as the kids are in school.

So many different scenarios - not to mention every child is different; some people have one child while others have several; some people have family support etc etc. And every husband is different!

Basically, just do what you need to do!

Working parents do all the same things SAHPs do, in far less time.

It gets my goat when SAHPs tell me how much stuff they have to do for their kids. I do all that too, after I've finished my paid, day job.

"Work" expands to fill the time available.

@Sweak

*You are financially ok, thats great but why try to shut down important debate about the issues that affect women? Very smug and blinkered imho*

You've completely ignored the example I gave of posters giving me incorrect information on state pensions whilst being a sahp. It's actually blinkered and smug to trot out these same old lines no matter what the context of the OP/discussion.

Totally agree and on page 6 it was a SAHM who referenced the MN Bingo.
No one else.
What does it bring to the debate?

It highlights it's the same old lines given out no matter what the context.

I personally would agree with financial support for SAHP for under 5s.
Support is given for CC, why not for those who SAH ?

Sorry what's Cc? I don't really understand what you are saying? The state should support women to sah financially? No I don't agree if that's what you mean. Instead the money should be spent on making childcare more affordable to give more parents choices.

CC = child care.

Parents get help with CC, why not the option for SAHP also for the period that they are caring for young DC, I would be reluctant to go fully for the German model , (see previous reference to Raben Mutter) but mothers do get payments to help and its far more accepted as a role.
Who knows perhaps more men would step up

My point is you seem to be having an argument in your head about subjects that havent even been mentioned and berating people for it on this one

@MrsFin

Working parents do all the same things SAHPs do, in far less time.

It gets my goat when SAHPs tell me how much stuff they have to do for their kids. I do all that too, after I've finished my paid, day job.

"Work" expands to fill the time available.

Exactly.

Just drivel from women trying to convince themselves that their precious DC are somehow more demanding and time consuming than the next.

@Lulalu

These threads are such nonsense because posters simply project their own circumstances into the debate - eg. if they didn’t work they would be financially insecure therefore “SAHMs are financially insecure.” If they were SAH for five years they would never get back into their particular job, therefore “SAHMs will never get back into the workplace at the same level.” They didn’t cope well at home, therefore, “SAHMs are brain dead and their children are better off at nursery.”

But it’s utter nonsense because every woman and every family is so unique.

For some women, a £50k salary or whatever is neither here nor there if your husband is very wealthy / high earner / makes or loses that type of money on a daily basis. In such a financial context, it can actually feel selfish to go to work and not be around for the kids - if it’s money that would be negligible anyway in the context of your life. If you divorce, you know where you’ll stand financially, job or not. This is why, areas where houses are worth millions have a lot more SAHPs, frankly. It stands to reason because the fact is, having a SAHP is a choice not everyone can afford to make these days. It’s all relative.

Most of the country are the “squeezed middle” where two incomes are needed to buy a house and things like holidays etc. So it’s understandable that the majority of women who are in this type of scenario would see SAHP as a risky choice and one that makes women financially vulnerable. So women in this demographic (which is most women) project this as a given.

Some women are simply not cut out to be at home with young children and they know this full well. They wonder how other women could possibly do it and think maybe they were just a bit dull / non-aspirational / “lesser” to begin with. So because some women were bored / depressed / would rather be at work - they apply this to SAHP in general.

At the other end of the scale, some women on low paid jobs can’t afford childcare. So, unless they have family help, they have to get in with it until such a time as the kids are in school.

So many different scenarios - not to mention every child is different; some people have one child while others have several; some people have family support etc etc. And every husband is different!

Basically, just do what you need to do!

Excellent post! One persons experience of SAH will be very different to anothers ditto WOH. If you have an engaged and hands on partner who facilitates your WOH as well as their own it works really well. However if you dont it becomes untenable.

Essentially most parents want the best for their DC and thats not always SAH or WOH, its a different ball game for everyone .

Just drivel from women trying to convince themselves that their precious DC are somehow more demanding and time consuming than the next.

Disagree.
This type of derision isnt fair nor helpful.

Essentially most parents want the best for their DC and thats not always SAH or WOH, its a different ball game for everyone .

And many people do both during their working lives.

My point is you seem to be having an argument in your head about subjects that havent even been mentioned and berating people for it on this one

Yes I can see how it comes across that way. I was trying to explain to a pp why these threads are largely started by sahp...in response to comments they see on various threads across MN. But I take your point and I can see how it looks like I'm injecting arguments I've seen elsewhere that haven't really been mentioned here. Fair enough.

As for the cc/financially support SAH suggestion in theory it sounds nice. But the funding from the gov only kicks in age 3...I'm assuming as there are clear benefits to nursery then in preparation for school? I could be wrong. If sahp had this funding instead of childcare providers would it disadvantage these children? I don't know. I can only talk of my own circumstances in that I felt around 3ish my eldest needed more contact with other kids and the pre school environment has been helpful prep for school.

@merrymouse

Essentially most parents want the best for their DC and thats not always SAH or WOH, its a different ball game for everyone .

And many people do both during their working lives.

Exactly.

@Lulalu post is one of the most sensible and measured posts I've seen on here

“Working parents do all the same things SAHPs do, in far less time.

It gets my goat when SAHPs tell me how much stuff they have to do for their kids. I do all that too, after I've finished my paid, day job.

"Work" expands to fill the time available.
Exactly.

Just drivel from women trying to convince themselves that their precious DC are somehow more demanding and time consuming than the next.”

Again, this is a classic case of looking at life though your own specific lens - “I do x,y,z and I manage therefore it must be so.,,”

The SAHMs were I live have cleaners anyway, so it’s not about housework. But it’s a different set of expectations all round. Perhaps they have husbands who are more demanding than the “average husband” for instance. Perhaps the husbands travel a lot and work crazy hours? If your husbands job pays for several sets of school fees and the £5 or whatever million home you live in, then I’m sorry, but you support that income. That is what makes sense and is in the best interests for your children, now and into the future..

Many women do a lot of entertaining, for instance. Their role is to organise pretty much everything outside of the husband’s job. If your children are going for some of the most competitive schools in the U.K, many women put a lot of research, effort and time into this. You could end up with several children all in different schools, given how competitive schools are in parts of London, for example. Families live hectic lifestyles and the kids do a lot. It makes sense for someone to be at home to mentally / emotionally / practically hold it all together otherwise it can all fall apart. This type of situation is fairly typical in some demographics. It’s hardly about “housework”

@MrsFin

Working parents do all the same things SAHPs do, in far less time.

It gets my goat when SAHPs tell me how much stuff they have to do for their kids. I do all that too, after I've finished my paid, day job.

"Work" expands to fill the time available.

This is absolute bollox. What are you paying your nursery/ childminder/ nanny to do all day while you are at work, if you are doing it all anyway? I do way less childcare on the days that I am working , and that extends to cooking meals etc. Also my child doesn’t spend the day messing up the house, creating much less housework.

@Bizawit. Not everyone has messy pre-schoolers. Kids go to school from the age of 4. Being a parent working or not lasts much longer.

I get that some mums of toddlers think that their experience is the only true parenting one but us mums who have older kids realise it’s just a brief period in a very long journey.

[quote Snookie00]@Bizawit. Not everyone has messy pre-schoolers. Kids go to school from the age of 4. Being a parent working or not lasts much longer.

I get that some mums of toddlers think that their experience is the only true parenting one but us mums who have older kids realise it’s just a brief period in a very long journey.[/quote]
Ok granted I don’t have older children so was thinking from that perspective. But even after children start school, it rarely extends for the whole working day, without requiring some wrap around care. I think it’s really snotty for a working parent to tell a SAHP that they do less work.

@Snookie00 yes. It a case of one size doesn't fit all in the responses on this thread isn't it.

@MrsFin post is true if you have school aged children..it's not true if you have preschoolers

Also this remark was extremely snotty 🙄. Of course I don’t think my experience is the “only true parenting one”. It must be wonderful feeling so superior 🙄🙄.

I get that some mums of toddlers think that their experience is the only true parenting one but us mums who have older kids realise it’s just a brief period in a very long journey.

But some of us have experience of both and are saying, in our experience, that sahp is not as much work. It really isn't. I often don't get to eat lunch in work. I always do when I'm off with the kids. And I have better food. I also don't have as many demands at home and can choose when I do things.

I think work DOES expand to fill the time cos I really can't see how people can be that busy all day at home, every day, when wohp manage to fit most of it into a few hours each night.

And the reason childminders/ nurseries keep kids busy all day is cos they can't really have 2 hour lunches with cbeebies on or go to a mate's house and let the kids play for a bit. Although one of my cm was v partial to giving the kids screens before school.

In real life, I don't know any sahp who think of it as work.