In thinking being a SAHM is work?

[morepizza]

Work is defined as:

noun
noun: work; plural noun: works; plural noun: the works
1 1. 
activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.

I think this includes SAH parental duties. I know a lot of people don't agree with me. What else would it be called?

@ColonelPine

“It’s only work if you’d rather be doing something else” as someone far wiser than I once said.

I like this

@Escapeas I agree with you about people concerning themselves with what they're doing and not comparing to others but this is mumsnet, I guess people will always start threads on whatever is on their mind at that time.

As for infantilising my DH, no I disagree, he's had our son many times by himself, nights too when I've been in hospital but that doesn't mean he's as aware or as careful as I am. Nearly every silly fall, or bump or bruise has been with my DH being negligent (not in a serious way or I'd have much bigger fish to fry). In an ideal world I'd say he'll learn as he goes on, but no, that's my child at risk and I'd rather be the primary caregiver the majority of the time, as I'm more careful with him. As my son gets a little older that'll change once he's more aware of himself and falling etc, then I wouldn't have that concern, but for now I don't care about my DH learning to become a super conscious aware parent, rather ill just ensure my son is safe. And yes he's still very small and as this thread goes on, I realise my situation is quite different to those posting.

Personally I think it can be work - because if it wasn’t done then you’d have to pay someone to do it - basically looking after pre-school children. You can’t really do that at the same time as doing a job: so either you do paid employment and pay someone else to look after baby during this time, or you look after the baby yourself.

The same could also apply if you have older kids who have medical problems. Or you have elderly relatives who require care.

Sometimes the state pays for some of this care, but there may be gaps etc; so people may choose to do the care themselves. Doesn’t take away from the fact that someone needs to do it and if a relative doesn’t, then someone has to be paid to.

Some people don’t need to do paid employment, but do so. Some people could get some parts of care provided by govt, but don’t for different reasons.

I'm sure many people would explain why it's so hard looking after small children.

I would genuinely like to understand. Obviously, it's difficult to care for a newborn, but that's not really what people are talking about when they talk about SAHPs because the vast majority of mums would be on maternity leave at that point anyway. The sleepless nights are a bugger well beyond the newborn phase if you get a child who doesn't sleep well, but I found it far easier in that phase to be at home with dc after a rough night than to try to function professionally in work. I can see that it's tough if you have twins or triplets, or maybe three pre-schoolers at home at one time. I can see that it would be incredibly difficult looking after a child with health issues or a disability.

So there are some caveats, but outside of those, I really don't get how looking after one NT young child could be the most difficult thing that someone had ever done. I can see that it might be a bit tiring. Maybe a bit dull and relentless sometimes. But difficult?

[quote notsogreenthumb]@Escapeas I agree with you about people concerning themselves with what they're doing and not comparing to others but this is mumsnet, I guess people will always start threads on whatever is on their mind at that time.

As for infantilising my DH, no I disagree, he's had our son many times by himself, nights too when I've been in hospital but that doesn't mean he's as aware or as careful as I am. Nearly every silly fall, or bump or bruise has been with my DH being negligent (not in a serious way or I'd have much bigger fish to fry). In an ideal world I'd say he'll learn as he goes on, but no, that's my child at risk and I'd rather be the primary caregiver the majority of the time, as I'm more careful with him. As my son gets a little older that'll change once he's more aware of himself and falling etc, then I wouldn't have that concern, but for now I don't care about my DH learning to become a super conscious aware parent, rather ill just ensure my son is safe. And yes he's still very small and as this thread goes on, I realise my situation is quite different to those posting. [/quote]
But you can ensure your son is safe by giving your DH a kick up the arse to actually pay attention when he's looking after him, as you do. Why is he incapable of it?

@AlexaShutUp

I'm sure many people would explain why it's so hard looking after small children.

I would genuinely like to understand. Obviously, it's difficult to care for a newborn, but that's not really what people are talking about when they talk about SAHPs because the vast majority of mums would be on maternity leave at that point anyway. The sleepless nights are a bugger well beyond the newborn phase if you get a child who doesn't sleep well, but I found it far easier in that phase to be at home with dc after a rough night than to try to function professionally in work. I can see that it's tough if you have twins or triplets, or maybe three pre-schoolers at home at one time. I can see that it would be incredibly difficult looking after a child with health issues or a disability.

So there are some caveats, but outside of those, I really don't get how looking after one NT young child could be the most difficult thing that someone had ever done. I can see that it might be a bit tiring. Maybe a bit dull and relentless sometimes. But difficult?

Exactly.

Before having dc I thought being a stahm wasn’t work because it was a choice (forgive me, I was 21 before having dc). I was with my dc until 16 months and started working because I was struggling so much. There’s no way I could be a stay at home mum, even though I’d definitely want to be off for the first 12 months if I had another. Yeah, you get all the time with your child but you also get no breaks what so ever. I think working full time/part time/not working is all really hard for different reasons. Looking after pre-school children day in day out is definitely akin to a job.

Ultimately, I think a lot of people get bitter due to the financial side of things. Some people want to go back to work but it makes no sense due to childcare costs, and for others they have to go back because they simply can’t afford their lifestyle without x2 salaries (something everyone neglects to tell everyone before having kids!). For me, I kind of wanted to start work and we weren’t financially viably on 1 salary (we could barely afford to eat), so I went part-time. I think being a SAHM is hard because everyone think you have an easy life, but you most probably don’t.

@Rno3gfr

Before having dc I thought being a stahm wasn’t work because it was a choice (forgive me, I was 21 before having dc). I was with my dc until 16 months and started working because I was struggling so much. There’s no way I could be a stay at home mum, even though I’d definitely want to be off for the first 12 months if I had another. Yeah, you get all the time with your child but you also get no breaks what so ever. I think working full time/part time/not working is all really hard for different reasons. Looking after pre-school children day in day out is definitely akin to a job.

Ultimately, I think a lot of people get bitter due to the financial side of things. Some people want to go back to work but it makes no sense due to childcare costs, and for others they have to go back because they simply can’t afford their lifestyle without x2 salaries (something everyone neglects to tell everyone before having kids!). For me, I kind of wanted to start work and we weren’t financially viably on 1 salary (we could barely afford to eat), so I went part-time. I think being a SAHM is hard because everyone think you have an easy life, but you most probably don’t.

I agree with much of this but it again neglects to reflect the single parents who have to work and provide for children on a single salary and manage all of the "mental load" and housework. Many people manage that. So it can't be that hard (with average children) to do just one half of a single parent's role. I think a lot of this fuss is about finances as you said but also self-esteem and some weird need to seek validation from other people. It seems very needy and insecure. I don't understand why people can't just get on with their own lives.

These threads are almost always started by a SAHP. That is a pattern. I think parents who work often respond with frustration or annoyance when it's insinuated that it's easier to juggle parenting and work - which makes no sense - or that they are "part time parents".

There's just no need for it. It's all been done to death on here and I wish people would just stop it and try to be supportive of each other.

Even single parents will either need to look after pre-school children and get benefits OR work and use childcare for the time they are at work (either paid or relatives or childcare vouchers). Very few people will be able to both simultaneously (but I guess they might exist). So I do think looking after pre-school kids is work.

Different people’s situations differ so much. Some people have grandparent help, some people have other caring responsibilities, some people have hard jobs (for them) and some have easy jobs. I don’t think you can say something is easy for everyone: maybe running 5k is easy for some and hard for others. Same as getting a 7 for maths gcse.

I always think whether it's the hardest work (as a pp said) depends on so many things: the support you have, the children you have, the environment you're in, what you do for a job as some are bloody hard, and how well you cope with things like little sleep

In a job you get a peaceful commute to think and listen to music. You drink multiple cups of coffee while they’re still hot and eat your lunch uninterrupted. You don’t get climbed on or clawed at. You get to do intellectually stimulating tasks which further your career ambitions and progress your life goals, which is not only rewarding but also engaging so you’re not bored. You have a reason to dress nicely and your appearance is valued. You talk to other adults about work and occasionally get to make small talk and crack jokes

I agree with this actually (currently FT working parent used to be SAHM) apart from dressing nicely; it’s scrubs and masks and hair in a bun where I work.

Some work days are highly stressful but then so are days with a screaming teething infant!

As a SAHP I was very lonely despite having lots of friends, daily meet ups at toddler clubs etc. All the talk was about kids. Yes it was nice going for lunch but you’re always on edge wondering if you’ll get to eat it before they wake up.

It’s probably different if your kids are at school and you get time to work on chores and planning in peace. Or if you have calm contented infants who don’t scream every 20 minutes!

Work has a structure and it can be hard to create that structure as a SAHM especially with a baby as the day revolves around their needs.

But the downside of working FT is you either have a fantastically effective cleaning schedule, or you contract domestic jobs out, or you come home to a tip wondering what to make for dinner!

With preschool children - without a doubt. I never understand when people say it isn't. If you're a working parent you pay a childminder/nursery to do the exact same tasks as a SAHM - of course it's work!

Being at work, teaching 30 children and dealing with all the extras that come with teaching is work. Being with my own children, on my own timetable, in the comfort of my own home wasn’t work. Hard at times but easier than being at work!

Isn't it a bit different to caring for your own DC than outsourcing it via nursery or other childcare?

If it's your own DC then you don't have a ton of government guidelines to adhere to, parents to answer to, reports/paperwork etc to fill in. Effectively no one is looking over your shoulder everyday making sure your work is done correctly.

Who knows what any individual does with their time.

However, caring for children, maintaining a house and general life admin are definitely work.

The fact that the work is often unpaid and done by women doesn’t stop it being work.

@StuffyHead - I don’t know whether you’re being silly or insulting re needing to fill in forms to ensure ‘childcare’ is carried out correctly. You sound like you’re reducing the SAHM role somewhat.

I think theres difference in perception here, between working in a job/ career as well as being a mum (whilst hopefully farming out some household tasks) and being a SAHM and carrying out all those tasks / whilst also looking after your own children and caring for them (whilst observing Government Guidelines).

I think we are looking at ‘work’ from two different standpoints. For those who work in a career I think they are reflecting on the emotional impact of having to juggle everything- which is undeniably stressful.

For me as a SAHM it does get stressful because my kids have Special Needs even though they’re older, but I am more talking about the physicality of having to manage all the household tasks - and I resent the fact I keep getting told that’s not work. Because quite frankly, it’s relentless.

I know someone will be along to shout at me over the internet- I shan’t care, you don’t know the full story why I don’t have a career any more.

I just wonder if the argument never goes away because we are all missing the point that we are talking about two different aspects of ‘work’.

I’m glad we get along better in real life.

Anyone who thinks that a bonus of being a working parent is getting 'a nice peaceful commute' has clearly never done the commute with nursery drop-off as an integral part - peaceful and full of time to think it isn't, the timings were always fraught and getting a toddler ready to an exact schedule doesn't make for a peaceful morning! That seems to sum up so many of the comments about how hard it is to be a SAHM - they seem to be comparing it to not having children or perhaps to being a working person with a stay at home partner and who doesn't do much for the kids (perhaps based on their own partners?). That isn't what life is like once you have children that you're an equal or primary carer for whether or not you work.

I am not being silly.

Looking after anyone young or old can be hard work. Anything can be hard work.

But lots of people are saying it's equal to a paid job but I think the difference is when it's your own DC you are the boss of you whereas when someone is paid to do the same thing there are far more hoops to jump through and that is why it is paid work.

Today is Saturday. Both parents here are in stressful clinical nhs jobs.2 Primary school children. Today will not be ‘work’. There will be housework, laundry, cooking, doing activities with children of course, but it definitely won’t be work.

I like the line pp said "its work if you'd rather be doing something else".
Parents who go out to work still have to parent and do chores when they get home.
Single parent, 2 kids, one autistic: Drop off kids on way to school, try and find time during the work day to do life admin, do the shop during lunch break... pick up child after school on the way from work. Get home in time for autistic child to be dropped off, cook, homework, baths etc.
Weekend: parenting, chores etc like any other person.
It's hard work but wouldn't say I have two jobs. I have one I go out to. Being home with kids, looking after them & the home is life.

@DogsAreHardWorkButWorthIt
I thought what @StuffyHead meant was that paid childcare will require the provider to first of all have certain qualifications and or training, and have to meet EY targets, and then filling forms or reports, daily etc. (I think nurseries have to note when they have changed a nappy or what the child has eaten - a SAHP would not have to do that.)

*but also self-esteem and some weird need to seek validation from other people. It seems very needy and insecure. I don't understand why people can't just get on with their own lives.

These threads are almost always started by a SAHP. That is a pattern.*

I think they are largely started by sahp on MN as there's so much vitrol towards sahp on MN. Or patronising comments about financial vulnerability...plenty of us are perfectly capable of weighing up risks. I will admit I read these comments and it winds me up. I'm sure if you are a wohm and you constantly read comments on MN that you have made a poor choice for your family (without actually knowing your circumstances!) It would wind you up

I will admit I started a thread on sahm and MN treatment a while ago. I repeatedly got told I had taken a risk with my future in regards to pension. I'm perfectly aware my pension will be less if I don't work for 4 years! I also got told incorrect information on state pension contributions by being a sahp. These posters were telling me financially incorrect information, yet I'm deemed to have not understood the implications of my decision not to work for 4 years?!

Look at page 6 on this thread...sahp bingo. Seriously these comments on here are constant. If you just ignore them the vitrol never gets challenged...it's not always that the poster is insecure in their decisions

There will be housework, laundry, cooking, doing activities with children of course, but it definitely won’t be work.

This is what is called 'the second shift', and its often expected that it will be done by women.

I don't think it does women any favours to downplay the value of unpaid work. Obviously people enjoy spending time with children, cooking etc, but plenty of people also enjoy their work.

Stuffy head - not all childcare jobs have a very proscriptive schedule. Some people are part time childminders for a few hours. Yes - they have to do courses and do admin and some may do additional things parents want, but they may not have the same proscriptive daily schedule.

In addition, workers have more rights than parents and may have more support. Eg - if they got sick, there would usually be others to cover while they go to GP or eat their lunch; They also get pension and maternity leave (which sahp’s would have to sort out themselves.

Other people are self employed or employed by their family and have more autonomy. Different people’s lives are different.

It is work but it's elective. Working parents still have to do most of what sahp do remember, apart from childcare during work hours - the house still needs cleaning, the normal life admin needs to be done all with kids around on a weekend.

Of course some have cleaners, this makes life easier, but some sahp have kids in pt nursery or school. I personally think being a working parent is hard, I was a sahm until mine were in primary school and my life wasn't hard, I loved it