Why are we embarrassed to fly the English flag?

[Dannyandsandy]

Just that really. I’m English but grew up in Ireland and everyone Irish is delighted to fly their flag with pride. I’ve travelled extensively around the world and have seen the same in other countries. To do so in England? Well you’re utter scum. Why?

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken
It’s not about thinking you’re better.
You can be proud of your children without thinking other children haven’t achieved anything or that your children are better.
It’s a feeling of having a connection to something that you think is positive.
My nan’s front garden is beautiful, as are the neighbouring gardens. Whenever I visit or go past I feel proud of her for going out and keeping it so pretty. For having such an incredible knowledge of flora. Do I think it’s the best garden in the world? No! But I do see the hard work that is put into it and the amazing outcome and I feel proud of her.

Your nan has worked hard at her garden, though, it's reasonable to feel proud of something you created. I did nothing to gain citizenship of the UK, for me it's not something to be proud of per say (although I am thankful)

@NameyNameyNameChangey

*AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken It’s not about thinking you’re better. You can be proud of your children without thinking other children haven’t achieved anything or that your children are better. It’s a feeling of having a connection to something that you think is positive. My nan’s front garden is beautiful, as are the neighbouring gardens. Whenever I visit or go past I feel proud of her for going out and keeping it so pretty. For having such an incredible knowledge of flora. Do I think it’s the best garden in the world? No! But I do see the hard work that is put into it and the amazing outcome and I feel proud of her.*

Your nan has worked hard at her garden, though, it's reasonable to feel proud of something you created. I did nothing to gain citizenship of the UK, for me it's not something to be proud of per say (although I am thankful)

I did nothing to come out of the vagina of the woman who came out of my nan’s vagina

I did nothing to gain citizenship of the UK, for me it's not something to be proud of per say (although I am thankful)

But you live here, right? And you contribute and interact with fellow people. Do you not feel any sense of belonging at all? It's very odd

@RuggerHug, I tend to dip in and out of these forums and I’m not very often motivated to comment, but it’s pretty obvious, even to the occasional participant, that there are a majority of Scottish and Irish commenters on this site who are here to give the English a good kick.

I wonder why that is? That there are so many Scottish and Irish commenters, not why they are here to give the English a kick - we all know why that is.

Is it something to do with the high unemployment rates in Scotland, that people have more time to waste in general? Or is it more targeted than that?

It’s not particularly sophisticated as it’s so transparent - this thread being a case in point. You could make the argument about any flag, but I doubt whether it would even occur to most people in England to think about flags, much less be embarrassed by them. Flags are more of an Irish thing. Should they be embarrassed?

I have no issue putting out the old bunting for a national event. I enjoy being part of a bigger whole, especially at the moment when it has felt very every man for himself.

The only thing that annoys me as that the St George's flags are often all grey and tatty and made of nasty thin material.

Wash and iron the thing if you're going to fly it.

I do understand the association with football thugs, but that is a small minority. I do also understand this history of us flying our flag (not always welcomed!) over large parts of the world during the days of empire, but that's long gone.

I'll be wearing colors and hoping to beat Scotland later this week :)

I have no problem with the idea of showing solidarity or kinship towards your fellow country people or celebrating shared experience. But the idea that your nationality gives you some superiority over others, or that loyalty towards it should trump decency, common sense or moral decisions, strikes me as profoundly stupid, to be honest.

Well obviously but why do you think that that is being suggested?

This thread has been an eye opener. I do understand why some people are so upset by their flag if they think it implies being better than all the others. That is not how I have perceive it but then I have a strong sense of community and have always felt connected and in solidarity with a range of others.

@Newrumpus, you only really see flags being used to demonstrate superiority over others during marching season in Northern Ireland. I notice there is no discussion of that on here.

I don’t know anyone in England who (outside of football) would ever give a flag a second thought.

The Union Jack is not as explicitly racist as the St George's flag. Because it includes all the nations of the union. But also just because it has been embraced less by the far right.

I can't help thinking its no accident that the sort of people who want to fly flags and again I deliberately exclude people supporting sporting tournaments tend to fly the St George's flag and not the Union Jack. If you were really "Proud of being British" rather than just racist or bigoted, why not fly the Union Jack?

Sadly, both have been hijacked. Both are flown more commonly outside houses as signs of division, not community. These flags are well tainted by the far right.

The only place the English flag looks appropriately displayed (apart from during football tournaments) is on Church of England churches, especially on St George's Day.

@anonymousobserver - did you just dip in to have a dig at Scots? Wtf

@Newrumpus, you only really see flags being used to demonstrate superiority over others during marching season in Northern Ireland. I notice there is no discussion of that on here

Sadly the NI 'marching season' nonsense spread across the sea a long time ago. The Union Jack is carried by the Orange Lodges marching in Scotland - and as they represent sectarian bigotry and a divisive community, the Union Jack is well wrapped up in that.

@anonymousobserver - dip in more often and you'll see that the majority of posters live in England - quite obvious by the places they talk about, the school holidays they refer to and a few other clues besides.

As for the Irish and Scots having a not so hidden agenda to 'give the English a good kick* - ridiculous conclusion to reach by a 'dip in' observer.

What everyone else said - associations with the far right,racism,anti immigrant views etc.
But - it's just a flag.I love my country,I don't need to fly a flag to demonstrate that,it's just a "thing".

Yes Celandiney time for a new flag the far right will never fly - one with symbols of peace, diversity and unity

I only dip in and out of this forum on occasion but every time I do, there's some lunatic saying things like "Mumsnet is a propaganda arm of the Irish and Scottish nationalist parties - that’s obvious to anyone who can read"

Good for a laugh!

Dannyandsandy, when I was last in Ireland it was thick with tricolours. Mind, it was Easter 2016!

Definitely time to go back again as soon as we can travel. ☺️

What worries me the most is that I've seen people 'blaming' immigrants for negative connotations of the English flag, as flying it might 'offend them'. As an immigrant, it doesn't offend me and I'd like to be able to show that I am a proud immigrant with a strong desire to identity with England and to the UK. I chose to be here and I love it here. It's a real shame that the connotations are so negative

To be fair if you're a white immigrant, you don't really have the same perspective of it. Non-white immigrants... while maybe not offended by the flag per se, are probably more wary of it, and usually for good reason. That's certainly not to say they're to blame for feeling that way though. The blame lies with the racists who adopted it as their symbol. What I mean is, it's not my parents fault that they're sometimes wary of people who fly the national flag. It's the fault of the NF, the BNP and every other organisation like them who insisted on waving the flag at every opportunity while spitting in their faces, attacking them in the street, throwing rocks through their windows, shouting racist abuse from their cars as they drive past, and so on.

I'll settle for beating Scotland 4-0 :)

But seriously, we have an awful reputation with respect to travelling football fans. They are a minority, but are embarrassment nonetheless. What is is always football? Not other sports?

I think you'll have the right wing nationalists in many countries draping themselves in flags, it's not just England. Given our history in those places, I can understand why some Scots, Welsh, Irish, French, Indians, etc. react the way they do.

@anonymousobserver

You may as well give it up as a bad job, *@mustlovegin*.

Mumsnet is a propaganda arm of the Irish and Scottish nationalist parties - that’s obvious to anyone who can read. They hate the English and everything that the English represent and have ever achieved.

You will never read a pro-English comment on Mumsnet.

Oh FFS! That is such a parochial, nationalistic thing to say. The English are such victims in that perspective. Victims of the EU of immigrants and liberals! 🙄

I’m English by the way, but I’m not a fan of patriotism since it tends to be associated with a sense of being better than ‘Johnny Foreigners’. Am I proud to be British? No, I’m glad to be from a country where I can have a decent life, but proud? It’s not an achievement, just an accident of birth and Britain is absolutely no better and sometimes worse, than several other first world countries!

[quote EerieSilence]@DdraigGoch - surely you must be joking?
It's not about the historical placement, it's about what it symbolises. And the British Empire didn't end in 1707.[/quote]
You appear to have things base-over-apex. The British Empire started in 1707 because that is when the country became a single entity. Not much colonialism actually took place under the St George's Cross.

@QwertyGirly

Flags don't have to be associated with your country of birth! THis is why the English flag is associated with nationalism.

I'm from Canada and Anybody who lives in Canada can be Canadian. It doesn't matter where you are born!

Further up this thread is an Indian poster who happily flys the St George's Cross. So anyone can be English too.

Quite a lot had happened by 1707, mostly by the English, being the biggest dog in the neighbourhood, but the Scots and the Irish were not innocent either.

I can't think of any Welsh aggressions, but they were probably done under English colours.

All the English handwringing is just a form of English exceptionalism. All countries have done some bad stuff.

It was almost certainly better being ruled by the wicked Sir George Grey or Cecil John Rhodes than the celebrated Shaka Zulu for example even though they all did bad things.

It's a pretty unique Americanism, the sheer amount of flags everywhere. And the pledging allegiance and what have you in schools and that. Off the top of my head (and I'm happy to be corrected) I can't think of any other country where you see so many flags in so many places all year round

Brazil. To a much greater extent that America in my experience. Flags, and Brazil colours and Brazil pride are everywhere. Even at just normal times of the year with nothing happening. I did some work at a shelter for street children in Brazil many years ago. Got paper and colouring things out and they all grabbed for the green, yellow and blue pens and started drawing flags and Brazil football shirts and patterns in Brazil colours.
It would have been sweet except there was something chilling about children showing such love for a country where (at the time) if a rich person paid a corrupt policeman enough the policeman would shoot a street child to clear the streets for them.

I do feel a certain amount of pride and loyalty to the UK. Not so much nationalism, I don't think but I am competitive. So when international sport is happening, I very much want the UK to win. And I will support the UK with flags etc. I feel like being British is a part of my identity and I wouldn't want to be from anywhere else.

Mexico had a weekly flag event at school, with singing and special marching with the flag ( the marching was a wee bit too similar to goose stepping to be a truly comfortable sight)

I find it very cringe if I'm honest. Makes me think of over the top football fans and idiots in general.
And if I was abroad I'd never flaunt the fact that I'm british/from England. Who wants the association with Brexit/Boris etc?