Why are we embarrassed to fly the English flag?

[Dannyandsandy]

Just that really. I’m English but grew up in Ireland and everyone Irish is delighted to fly their flag with pride. I’ve travelled extensively around the world and have seen the same in other countries. To do so in England? Well you’re utter scum. Why?

@mustlovegin

My youngest DD didn't want to colour an England flag

I don't understand what point is being made here exactly

Perhaps DCs are being badly influenced at school?

DCs saying something doesn't automatically legitimise the argument

My point was that even children are influenced by the belief that flying an English flag = racist.

It's quite sad!

The funny thing about all this handwringing is that St George's cross isn't even of English origin. The English paid for the right to fly the flag so they could sail the Med without being attacked. Like most things "English" they decided to keep it once they started using it.

St George belongs to far more countries than just England so that the flag has been hijacked by racists is sublimely ironic.

I'm sorry I can't seem to quote part of what you said thepeopleversuswork but your first part about the US being built as a nation to give emigrants a chance and anti racist? It's a country built on we're white so better than the native people so let's wipe them out! There's nothing anti racist about how it was set up.

I understand that, which is why I go on to say its flawed and discredited. Because as you rightly point out, the economy of the US in the early years was built on slavery. But the fact remains that in the first 100 or so years of its foundation the US was positioned as a refuge for emigrants from Europe (in terms of religious and political freedoms). I'm not justifying this, but in the era in which the US was set up, exploitation of and discrimination against, people of African heritage in western nations was absolutely routine and Britain did the same, only offshored it.

So the US was profoundly racist against people of African heritage. But it did claim to offer emigrants from Europe a second chance and that is very much built into its founding myth. Which is different from the English nationalism which is basically simply 'ra ra', we're English and we're better than Johnny Foreigner'.

I dislike the current government use of the Union flag to promote themselves through nationalism.

I dislike the St George’s flag being used by far right groups and thus being associated with thuggery and racism.

I see no need for jingoistic flag waving. I live in the U.K. by accident of birth, so have nothing personally to be proud of. I am truly ashamed by current government behaviours and definitely not proud to be British at the moment.

That's really just a theory, but doesn't everyone know it's not of English origin? Just like the St Andrew's Cross isn't Scottish?

I doubt anyone had proprietary rights to it: saints' emblems were common property in medieval times.

(that was to WTFisnext)

The English also used the inverted version (white cross, red background) if medieval paintings are any guide. They're in a painting of the Battle of Agincourt, 1415.

@mustlovegin

it is just about where your mother was when you were born

it's weird to be patriotic to a random piece of earth you happened to be born on

I find those who display such level of detachment and contempt towards their land and fellow nationals, very untrustworthy

I'm British by fate of birth. I'm another nationality by descent. I could as easily have been French, American, etc... wherever my grandparents had decided to emigrate to. I'm thankful to have been born here, but I'm not "proud" of it, because I did nothing to achieve it. I don't place "my fellow nationals" above any other people on earth, why would I?

Not sure about Ireland - the one time I see the Irish flag flying around here is before and on St. Paddy's Day. And soccer matches and championships, of course.
Otherwise, I just see lots of county flags flying around, mainly around the GAA matches time. If you see the Dublin flag outside of Dublin, you know it's a bloody blow-in and you just watch them with a slight disdain.

I find those who display such level of detachment and contempt towards their land and fellow nationals, very untrustworthy

Its not that anyone is displaying detachment and contempt towards their land and fellow nationals. Its that some people including me are baffled as to why they should celebrate something so arbitrary as where you happen to have been born and what nationality you hold.

It's not something that you as an individual have any control over, nor is it anything which gives you any particular advantage or moral strength, so why should it be celebrated? I'd prefer to celebrate my similarity with people with shared values and moral perspectives, rather than aligning myself simply with other people who happen to have been born on the same patch of soil.

I have no problem with the idea of showing solidarity or kinship towards your fellow country people or celebrating shared experience. But the idea that your nationality gives you some superiority over others, or that loyalty towards it should trump decency, common sense or moral decisions, strikes me as profoundly stupid, to be honest.

We’re not embarrassed, and plenty of people do fly it (far more in people’s gardens near where I grew up now than when I was a child). But it’s not necessarily the “done” thing; we’re more understated as a nation, and it’s not as culturally typical. But there’s nobody saying you can’t, and there’s no implication that it’s bad.

For some people there’s a memory of association with football louts, but that’s receding now I think.

Remember, when you’re talking about the Celtic nations flying flags, that’s - perhaps subconsciously - in response to defining themselves against a larger country (England) which historically dominated them; so the people of that country had something to define themselves against. The English were the dominant partner, so overt displays of patriotism weren’t as necessary.

@thepeopleversuswork

I find those who display such level of detachment and contempt towards their land and fellow nationals, very untrustworthy

Its not that anyone is displaying detachment and contempt towards their land and fellow nationals. Its that some people including me are baffled as to why they should celebrate something so arbitrary as where you happen to have been born and what nationality you hold.

It's not something that you as an individual have any control over, nor is it anything which gives you any particular advantage or moral strength, so why should it be celebrated? I'd prefer to celebrate my similarity with people with shared values and moral perspectives, rather than aligning myself simply with other people who happen to have been born on the same patch of soil.

I have no problem with the idea of showing solidarity or kinship towards your fellow country people or celebrating shared experience. But the idea that your nationality gives you some superiority over others, or that loyalty towards it should trump decency, common sense or moral decisions, strikes me as profoundly stupid, to be honest.

I have no big issues with flag flying to be honest (whether makes people feel better) but this ^^.

Remember, when you’re talking about the Celtic nations flying flags, that’s - perhaps subconsciously - in response to defining themselves against a larger country (England) which historically dominated them; so the people of that country had something to define themselves against. The English were the dominant partner, so overt displays of patriotism weren’t as necessary.

This. I remember there being a big discussion about the Germans flying the German flag during the World Championship in I think 2006? While this flag was never a part of the Nazi history, it was still perceived as wrong and far-right to fly the flag. They still only do it during the Euro and World Championships.
England is pretty similar, the flag was highjacked by the far-right and hooligans and there's never been a proper confrontation with the history of colonialism.

'Whatever', not 'whether'.

I see a lot of stereotyping going on when it comes to flags, which makes me nervous. Football fans from my experience are generally not racist (I am Indian and attend football regularly). Anyone flying a national flag should not be assumed to be racist. Doing so stereotypes whole communities of predominantly working class people. Classism is a serious issue in this country, and on forums like this it still appears okay to indulge in it. My kids have their flags out for the Euros (mixed race), and trust me they are not racist... the biggest St George's day parade is in multi-cultural West Bromwich, and it is well supported by a very mixed community. I am proud to be English, and I am proud of my flag, and I see no good reason not to be.

@Crankley

I'm not, I'm proud of my country and anyone who doesn't like it can fuck right off.

...that sort of attitude is exactly what people would anticipate from someone who displays the flag - ie someone who doesn't give two shits about others. Bravo! 👏

@TomPinch it's not just a theory it's well documented that the Genoese navy ruled the Med under St George's cross possibly as pirates/privateers and that the English paid to use the flag for safe passage.

I'm cloudy on how it became the English flag TBH because the only parts of English history I'm versed on are where it's substantially intersected with Welsh history. I'm not saying anyone has proprietary interest in the flag but I'd be willing to bet money that if I asked a random 10 people in an English city about the origins of St George's cross that most wouldn't be able to give anything resembling a correct answer.

My point is I think it's very funny that St George's cross been co-opted as a symbol of racist England when the origins and modern use aren't exclusively English (check out the Georgian flag)

Oliver Cromwell, The Highland Clearances, The Irish Potato Famine , The Battle of Culloden,The British Empire, huge English fortunes made from slavery, Owain Glyndwr....these are just a few of the many reasons in no particular order.
England has a bit of a history of oppressing others and far right wing groups think this was some sort of golden era, so have hi-jacked the flag and we haven't managed to claw it back from them, even though people like Billy Bragg have tried.

@sloanerangerpandora

It screams racist brexit voter type.

Good grief - what an ignorant bigoted attitude.

@Sn0tnose

Off the top of my head (and I'm happy to be corrected) I can't think of any other country where you see so many flags in so many places all year round.

Wales. Dragons everywhere.

In fairness if we had a dragon on our flag, I might actually be motivated to put one up - but that's only because dragons ARE cool! 😎😁

I'm also not sure if the OP is ignorant or being deliberately disingenuous, but I'm incredulous to hear that being English growing up in Ireland, she would not be aware of times and places in Ireland and more particularly NI where flying a particular flag, Irish, British, English, Ulster would be extremely political or provocative. People on the island of Ireland are not always just like "Oh hi, neighbour on the Falls Road, I'm so glad you are proud to be British and flying your flag there ." I mean, come ON

Flags are a strange thing. I have lived in the UK for over 20 years, and I am from a country where people are generally OK with the national flag (Canada), some people will have the country's flag outside their house. The Canadian flag itself has no real racist connotation. However, each province or even region has its own flag (think Cornish flag for example) and they can represent a desire for independence (Quebec flag) or regional/language identity (Acadian flag, which is the French flag with a single yellow star). But I don't think that there is a racist undertone to those flags, just a desire for people to show their pride and identity.

It does baffle me that that the English flag has such negative connotations, but then I wasn't in this country when football hooliganism was in full strength. The association of the English flag with the far-right has been and is still very strong and I think it's the main issue.

What worries me the most is that I've seen people 'blaming' immigrants for negative connotations of the English flag, as flying it might 'offend them'. As an immigrant, it doesn't offend me and I'd like to be able to show that I am a proud immigrant with a strong desire to identity with England and to the UK. I chose to be here and I love it here. It's a real shame that the connotations are so negative.

Why do people keep going on about "colonialism"? The Union flag started to be used by the navy in 1606 and was adopted by land forces in 1707 so comparatively little colonialism took place under the St George's Cross.

I find these comments really sad. Awful to be wary of showing patriotism.

I live in Australia and it's a matter of pride to show the flag.