Why are we embarrassed to fly the English flag?

[Dannyandsandy]

Just that really. I’m English but grew up in Ireland and everyone Irish is delighted to fly their flag with pride. I’ve travelled extensively around the world and have seen the same in other countries. To do so in England? Well you’re utter scum. Why?

Far right are arseholes. Yep. I stand by this.

Yep. me too.

Also nationalism seems to be inherently tied to where you are born (as if that somehow makes you better or worse even though you had no control of it)...an immigrant to a different country can be patriotic however, as that is acknowledging we are part of a wider 'team', whether accidentally or not, and we want the best for our citizens and will fight for better. Another key difference. Often why nationalism tends to be pretty racist....whereas patriotism doesnt have to be.

@LilMidge01 I looked them up and saw a few different definitions as well as yours but I like yours and agree with it.

I got a good look at it here.
www.dictionary.com/e/patriotism-vs-nationalism/

I find a lot of the talk from the English comparing themselves others and saying why aren’t we proud like them isn’t based in much fact. Like every St Patrick’s Day it’s “why aren’t we celebrating St George’s Day like they do, and like the Scottish and Welsh celebrate their saint day?” When the reality is there are no real celebrations on St. Andrews or St David’s day. And it’s the USA influence which has helped with the image of St Patrick’s day.

I don't understand the whole taking it back from the football hooligans thing.

It's fairly simple, fly the flag while not being a football hooligan.

@NigellaSeed

As my post was aimed at people such as Crankley (from "if you don't like my flag you can't fuck right off" fame), I stand by my comment. I did acknowledge there our people who are trying to claim back the flag from the far right, and I specifically said it wasn't aimed at them.

Far right are arseholes. Yep. I stand by this.

Agreed far right are arseholes.

But just saying anyone with a flag is a far right arsehole is simply bigotry.

But just saying anyone with a flag is a far right arsehole is simply bigotry.

Hear hear.

The last few posts prove that posters have fallen right into the trap set by the OP.

Agreed far right are arseholes.

But just saying anyone with a flag is a far right arsehole is simply bigotry.

Exactly

But just saying anyone with a flag is a far right arsehole is simply bigotry.

I don't automatically think anyone with a flag is a bigot. Particularly around the time of a major football tournament.

But I do find myself wondering what sort of person, knowing that the St George's flag is loaded with associations with bigotry and racism, would go out of their way to fly it.

If I was weighing up the options between displaying something which I knew would make people think I was racist and not displaying it, I know which one I'd go for.

But I value being inclusive and not needlessly getting people's backs up more than I value celebrating a random accident of my birth which I have no control over and which doesn't make me any better than anyone else. Horses for courses.

But the idea that your nationality gives you some superiority over others

Flying your flag has nothing to do with believing you are superior. It's to do with a sense of belonging and fraternity and, as a PP said, valuing your country and wishing it does well. Though, it's apparent some posters' priorities and loyalty lie elsewhere...

@thepeopleversuswork

But just saying anyone with a flag is a far right arsehole is simply bigotry.

I don't automatically think anyone with a flag is a bigot. Particularly around the time of a major football tournament.

But I do find myself wondering what sort of person, knowing that the St George's flag is loaded with associations with bigotry and racism, would go out of their way to fly it.

If I was weighing up the options between displaying something which I knew would make people think I was racist and not displaying it, I know which one I'd go for.

But I value being inclusive and not needlessly getting people's backs up more than I value celebrating a random accident of my birth which I have no control over and which doesn't make me any better than anyone else. Horses for courses.

Well, yes, exactly. A flag is a type of symbol, and symbols by their nature accrue a set of meanings which are about more than what an individual intends their individual use of it to mean, whether that's a symbol such as the remembrance poppy, the rainbow flag or the swastika.

It is a pity the St George's flag now has such strong associations with bigotry and racism, absolutely, but it undoubtedly does. Flying it on a flagpole in your garden or tattooing it on your body means that you are opening yourself up to this being interpreted according to a widely-known set of associations.

How English people might go about attempting to 'cleanse' or reinvent the associations of the flag is an interesting idea, but it's far from clear to me how it might be done. Has anyone ever managed to replace a set of negative connotations to a specific symbol?

I know that you still often see swastikas in Indian temples, but there's no possibility of rehabilitating the swastika in Europe.

The flag waving nationalism associated with the St Georges Cross or Union Flag doesn't appeal to me. It seems jingoistic and represents a version of Britain that I have come to dislike... It feels empty and fuelled by negative emotions of hubristic pride, intolerance of others and a small world view of sovereignty.

This doesn't mean I am not patriotic though - I only have to think about the opening ceremony of the 2012 Olympics to get a bit dewy eyed, but these principles of tolerance, looking out for the weaker members of society, integrity and vision on the world stage, advanced human rights, multiculturalism and an underpinning of democratic socialism that made me so proud of our country just seem so far away from everything this absolute landslide government embodies.

At the moment and for the last few years, it has felt like the idiots are winning and you can identify them as they are all waving little flags.

It doesn't mean anything to me and it's tacky to be honest. I also associate seeing those flags as people who are racist. Obviously I know there's many people who aren't but growing up in pubs etc and people like that, they wouldn't hesitate to call someone a racial name.

How English people might go about attempting to 'cleanse' or reinvent the associations of the flag is an interesting idea, but it's far from clear to me how it might be done. Has anyone ever managed to replace a set of negative connotations to a specific symbol?

Well this sort of happened with the Union Jack during the Blair era and the whole Cool Britannia thing. Don't get me wrong, a lot of it was bollocks and all politically motivated, but it did to some extent cleanse the flag of some of the Little Ingerland associations it had had before. But The Union Jack is highly likely to become politically irrelevant in a few years anyway.

I could imagine a very popular, very progressive government could cleanse the St George's flag with the willpower if it were avowedly inclusive. But with Brexit in the rear view mirror and the country as divided as it is now I couldn't see it happening at the moment.

@thepeopleversuswork

How English people might go about attempting to 'cleanse' or reinvent the associations of the flag is an interesting idea, but it's far from clear to me how it might be done. Has anyone ever managed to replace a set of negative connotations to a specific symbol?

Well this sort of happened with the Union Jack during the Blair era and the whole Cool Britannia thing. Don't get me wrong, a lot of it was bollocks and all politically motivated, but it did to some extent cleanse the flag of some of the Little Ingerland associations it had had before. But The Union Jack is highly likely to become politically irrelevant in a few years anyway.

I could imagine a very popular, very progressive government could cleanse the St George's flag with the willpower if it were avowedly inclusive. But with Brexit in the rear view mirror and the country as divided as it is now I couldn't see it happening at the moment.

Fair enough. I arrived in the UK at the height of Cool Britannia, so was probably unaware of the precise previous connotations of the Union Jack before it turned into Gerri Halliwell's dress

Oh, and a general question from a foreigner, who lived in the UK for a long time, but has now left -- would people view the display of a Union Jack on a flagpole in someone's garden as having an entirely or partially different set of connotations to the St George's flag?

@DynamoKev I didn't say everyone. I should of tagged Crankley in my post, it was aimed at people like that.

@GloriousMystery

Oh, and a general question from a foreigner, who lived in the UK for a long time, but has now left -- would people view the display of a Union Jack on a flagpole in someone's garden as having an entirely or partially different set of connotations to the St George's flag?

The Union Jack is not as explicitly racist as the St George's flag. Because it includes all the nations of the union. But also just because it has been embraced less by the far right.

I can't help thinking its no accident that the sort of people who want to fly flags and again I deliberately exclude people supporting sporting tournaments tend to fly the St George's flag and not the Union Jack. If you were really "Proud of being British" rather than just racist or bigoted, why not fly the Union Jack?

Because it has been widely adopted by bigoted far-right groups and I would never want to be associated with them in any way, shape or form. For the record, I don't care if this makes me a supposed 'snowflake'....

I'm English and proud. It's sad patriotism is frowned upon in England, but other countries celebrate their nationality. Im proud of our lovely Queen, our HM forces, our landmarks, our NHS, our landscape, our coastline, our theatres, museums and galleries.

@Dogsarebest

I'm English and proud. It's sad patriotism is frowned upon in England, but other countries celebrate their nationality. Im proud of our lovely Queen, our HM forces, our landmarks, our NHS, our landscape, our coastline, our theatres, museums and galleries.

Do other countries not have monarchs or heads of state/armed forces/landscapes/coastlines, theatres/museums or galleries? Are ours inherently better than theirs because we're English?

This is why those of us who are not racist thugs should put out the bunting and fly the flag on special occasions for the country. It's the only way to put a stop to the "hijacking"

It’s not about thinking you’re better.
You can be proud of your children without thinking other children haven’t achieved anything or that your children are better.
It’s a feeling of having a connection to something that you think is positive.
My nan’s front garden is beautiful, as are the neighbouring gardens. Whenever I visit or go past I feel proud of her for going out and keeping it so pretty. For having such an incredible knowledge of flora. Do I think it’s the best garden in the world? No! But I do see the hard work that is put into it and the amazing outcome and I feel proud of her.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

It’s not about thinking you’re better. You can be proud of your children without thinking other children haven’t achieved anything or that your children are better. It’s a feeling of having a connection to something that you think is positive. My nan’s front garden is beautiful, as are the neighbouring gardens. Whenever I visit or go past I feel proud of her for going out and keeping it so pretty. For having such an incredible knowledge of flora. Do I think it’s the best garden in the world? No! But I do see the hard work that is put into it and the amazing outcome and I feel proud of her.

This is the same feeling I get when I think of the NHS or our landmarks etc.