Why are we embarrassed to fly the English flag?

[Dannyandsandy]

Just that really. I’m English but grew up in Ireland and everyone Irish is delighted to fly their flag with pride. I’ve travelled extensively around the world and have seen the same in other countries. To do so in England? Well you’re utter scum. Why?

Do other countries not have monarchs or heads of state/armed forces/landscapes/coastlines, theatres/museums or galleries? Are ours inherently better than theirs because we're English?

That's not what people are saying though. You can like and be proud of something without that meaning you think it's better than everything else in the world!

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

It’s not about thinking you’re better. You can be proud of your children without thinking other children haven’t achieved anything or that your children are better. It’s a feeling of having a connection to something that you think is positive. My nan’s front garden is beautiful, as are the neighbouring gardens. Whenever I visit or go past I feel proud of her for going out and keeping it so pretty. For having such an incredible knowledge of flora. Do I think it’s the best garden in the world? No! But I do see the hard work that is put into it and the amazing outcome and I feel proud of her.

My point entirely. (you probably used a better example though)

I'm not English, so the English flag isn't something I would think of flying, but the people who do fly/wear etc the flag seem to show more jingoistic nationalism than friendly patriotism. It's like the difference between Canadian and US attitudes to the flag - Canadia seems to be able to do the flag stuff in a way that means "I like where I'm from and want to share the good stuff with you - tell me the good things about where you come from" whereas the stars and stripes tends to be used to say that USA is the best country.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

It’s not about thinking you’re better. You can be proud of your children without thinking other children haven’t achieved anything or that your children are better. It’s a feeling of having a connection to something that you think is positive. My nan’s front garden is beautiful, as are the neighbouring gardens. Whenever I visit or go past I feel proud of her for going out and keeping it so pretty. For having such an incredible knowledge of flora. Do I think it’s the best garden in the world? No! But I do see the hard work that is put into it and the amazing outcome and I feel proud of her.

Well, up to a point. That analogy would work if you were talking about flying the flag of whatever town your nan lives in.

But when the symbol you are using to celebrate your nan's front garden is drenched with association with groups who believe that foreigners should leave the UK and that England's heyday was the apex of colonialism, you basically are saying you're better.

I do think its sad that the English flag is associated with racism. But it is and when people go ahead and display it on their lawn or whatever I slightly wonder what they think other people will think. These symbols don't exist in a cultural vacuum.

You can like and be proud of something without that meaning you think it's better than everything else in the world!

Yes, I agree. And even if some people do think it's 'better' in their particular country in some ways, that doesn't have to equate to jingoism.

I think of it as like families. Family 1 might like different food to Family 2, have a different pet, drive a different car and watch different TV programmes. If Family 1 puts a sticker in the window saying 'Beware of the cat', tells you how much they enjoyed a certain recipe, wears a 'Friends' sweatshirt and has an 'I heart my Fiesta' on their car, they aren't in any way being rude or discriminatory towards Family 2 who have other interests. To me, the flag is the same kind of thing.

@Snoozer11 I don’t massively care - I’m just answering the OP. I don’t think my post comes across as caring a great deal.

@thepeopleversuswork I don’t really think about it abroad - culturally there may be differences in the reasoning for flying flags I guess.

I seem to remember back in 1996 the st George’s flag was “reintroduced” for non racists to fly during the football because the Union Jack had been so annexed by the far right.

Then it got taken over as well, and seemed even worse as it had connotations with being anti the rest of the U.K. too

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

I seem to remember back in 1996 the st George’s flag was “reintroduced” for non racists to fly during the football because the Union Jack had been so annexed by the far right.

Then it got taken over as well, and seemed even worse as it had connotations with being anti the rest of the U.K. too

That's interesting, I'd forgotten that!

I guess that shows it could work the other way around then.

It would help if we had a less thuggish and chauvinistic government, for starters.

a small world view of sovereignty

What does this mean? Sovereignty doesn't matter then?

How English people might go about attempting to 'cleanse' or reinvent the associations of the flag is an interesting idea, but it's far from clear to me how it might be done. Has anyone ever managed to replace a set of negative connotations to a specific symbol?

There's nothing to 'cleanse', thank you very much.

But, to answer your question, it's probably very easy, it can be done through unabating propaganda and activism, the same type used to convince a few that a flag can be 'racist'

You may as well give it up as a bad job, @mustlovegin.

Mumsnet is a propaganda arm of the Irish and Scottish nationalist parties - that’s obvious to anyone who can read. They hate the English and everything that the English represent and have ever achieved.

You will never read a pro-English comment on Mumsnet.

@mustlovegin

How English people might go about attempting to 'cleanse' or reinvent the associations of the flag is an interesting idea, but it's far from clear to me how it might be done. Has anyone ever managed to replace a set of negative connotations to a specific symbol?

There's nothing to 'cleanse', thank you very much.

But, to answer your question, it's probably very easy, it can be done through unabating propaganda and activism, the same type used to convince a few that a flag can be 'racist'

What 'propaganda and activism' is that?

Mumsnet is a propaganda arm of the Irish and Scottish nationalist parties

Classic

Mumsnet is a propaganda arm of the Irish and Scottish nationalist parties - that’s obvious to anyone who can read. They hate the English and everything that the English represent and have ever achieved.

LOL.

@Dannyandsandy - can you please answer the question I asked you directly on the first page.

I'm Irish. When and where have you see the Irish waving or flying the tricolour with pride (apart from St. Patrick's Day, March 17th)???

GAA team and county flags are flown with a lot more frequency and pride than the tricolour (unless you happen to be in a very nationalist area in the 6 counties and then you see the Union Jack flying with equal frequency).

@anonymousobserver

You may as well give it up as a bad job, *@mustlovegin*.

Mumsnet is a propaganda arm of the Irish and Scottish nationalist parties - that’s obvious to anyone who can read. They hate the English and everything that the English represent and have ever achieved.

You will never read a pro-English comment on Mumsnet.

Hey, what about the Welsh? We have propaganda too you know!

No idea about the Welsh. Nearly every commenter on this site declares themselves to be Scottish or Irish. The English seem to be outnumbered by about 5 to 1.

It’s not surprising either, given how hostile it is.

@lockheart I'd never thought of this before I read your post, but Thailand is also a country very fond of its flag. The national one (red, white, blue) and a yellow one to represent the royal family. They even hang different colour bunting on public buildings (including malls, not just government buildings) depending on the public holiday.

The King's song plays publicly twice a day and we are all supposed to stand still while it plays. In the morning, this coincides with rush hour so is not ideal when at a busy train station! Schools raise the flag each morning, as well. At the cinema the anthem is played before the film starts.

Thailand is very nationalistic and it is illegal to speak ill of the royal family.

I don't think people hang flags from their houses, though. I've never seen it, anyway. And the yellow royal flag is much more prevalent than the actual national flag, so I guess not quite the same thing (especially as not everyone is a royalist, as last year's protests proved, but obviously we're not allowed to talk about that!)

Oh and in Chile it is technically illegal NOT to fly the national flag on 18th September, which is their national freedom day. When i lived there, we had a concerned neighbour knock on our door to give us a flag in case we didn't have one!

But they don't fly them all the time like in the US.

Mumsnet is a propaganda arm of the Irish and Scottish nationalist parties

I'm in Wales

I went into town today and saw a car with not one, not two, but three England flags. I imagine it's football-related but I still find it a bit odd.

Hopefully this counts as propaganda too

You will never read a pro-English comment on Mumsnet

True. It's ridiculous

@mustlovegin

You will never read a pro-English comment on Mumsnet

True. It's ridiculous

There's a few dozen on this thread.

Have a word with yourself.

Mumsnet is a propaganda arm of the Irish and Scottish nationalist parties

🤣🤣🤣

Because it has been widely adopted by bigoted far-right groups and I would never want to be associated with them in any way, shape or form. For the record, I don't care if this makes me a supposed 'snowflake'....

not wanting to be associated with bigots does not make you a snowflake.

The same way that standing up for women's rights to be defined as a sex class does not make anyone a bigot.

@anonymousobserver

You may as well give it up as a bad job, *@mustlovegin*.

Mumsnet is a propaganda arm of the Irish and Scottish nationalist parties - that’s obvious to anyone who can read. They hate the English and everything that the English represent and have ever achieved.

You will never read a pro-English comment on Mumsnet.

Does.....does anyone want to tell anonymousobserver we've been out for over 100 years? Irish nationalist party indeed. Well you know, part of the Internet being international and all is that people from different places can all come together and have chats/discussions and all that. It's one of the best things about it. No one is cheering that a flag has been taken in by racists as a symbol they love, quite the opposite. But if you ask yourself why they felt it was appropriate to use you can get an idea why and work on changing it if you're not happy about it.