Why are we embarrassed to fly the English flag?

[Dannyandsandy]

Just that really. I’m English but grew up in Ireland and everyone Irish is delighted to fly their flag with pride. I’ve travelled extensively around the world and have seen the same in other countries. To do so in England? Well you’re utter scum. Why?

@Whyhello

Because it is tied up with connotations of racism due to parties like the English Defence League etc., who use it as their emblem.

This basically. I also associate England football fans with general thuggery as much of the world does. I think they’re an embarrassment in all honesty. My DH is watching the game and they boo every time the opposition has the ball. No wonder a lot of the world thinks we’re idiots.

Have you ever met a Russian football fan? They make the Millwall Bushwhackers look tame.

@DdraigGoch - surely you must be joking?
It's not about the historical placement, it's about what it symbolises. And the British Empire didn't end in 1707.

I also associate England football fans with general thuggery as much of the world does. I think they’re an embarrassment in all honesty

All football fans? That's one hell of a generalisation.

Aimed at people like @Crankley - not people who are trying to "claim back" from the right wing (don't think it's gonna happen, mind you)

@NigellaSeed

Atleast with their crass flag up, it's a massive sign out side their door "Beware of the areshole".

Whereas I think comments like these highlight who the arseholes really are.

@EerieSilence

Not sure about Ireland - the one time I see the Irish flag flying around here is before and on St. Paddy's Day. And soccer matches and championships, of course. Otherwise, I just see lots of county flags flying around, mainly around the GAA matches time. If you see the Dublin flag outside of Dublin, you know it's a bloody blow-in and you just watch them with a slight disdain.

Yes, I don’t think Irish people do generally fly Irish flags a lot, outside St Patrick’s Day or international matches. A scattering around Easter for 1916 commemorations — more so in my PILs area where the roads are called after 1916/ war of independence leaders —and some for various Decade of Commemoration things, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen an Irish person flying the tricolour on a flagpole in their garden. Much more likely to have county of local GAA club flags.

And agree, @HarebrightCedarmoon.

I just don’t see the point! Why fly your flag within your own country? It’s not clever or brave - surely it’s assumed that everyone is vaguely pro their own country and wants it to do well for our own sake?

I think it represents being proud of your country. I'm English and I'm certainly not proud to be English. When we no longer have food banks or homeless, and when our nhs becomes properly funded, amongst many other issues, I might be more inclined to be more patriotic

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

I just don’t see the point! Why fly your flag within your own country? It’s not clever or brave - surely it’s assumed that everyone is vaguely pro their own country and wants it to do well for our own sake?

Exactly. At best it suggest that you inherently think you're better than other people because of an accident of your birth. I can't really see the upside in going around shouting "I'm English so I'm great".

I make an exception for sporting tournaments because that's what everyone does.

Anyone who had a St George's cross up as a steady state position I would assume is either racist or a bit thick. You just can't have lived in this country and have escaped the history and the loaded signifiers so I would assume you'd either over-ridden that because you inherently signed up to that viewpoint or you'd not read a newspaper or looked at the internet for about 40 years.

Shoot me, but I can't see what other motivation there would be for it really.

@NigellaSeed

Atleast with their crass flag up, it's a massive sign out side their door "Beware of the areshole".

Bigotry - alive and well.

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

I just don’t see the point! Why fly your flag within your own country? It’s not clever or brave - surely it’s assumed that everyone is vaguely pro their own country and wants it to do well for our own sake?

I don't see why you would care about someone flying their country's flag. Do you not think there are more important things to worry about?

Flags don't have to be associated with your country of birth! THis is why the English flag is associated with nationalism.

I'm from Canada and Anybody who lives in Canada can be Canadian. It doesn't matter where you are born!

@NigellaSeed

Atleast with their crass flag up, it's a massive sign out side their door "Beware of the areshole".

I guess you've got one outside yours then......

It’s a shame because I’m not from the UK but I love the Union Jack. I have loads of cushions of in the union jack design, think it’s one of the nicer flags.
But yes in the US a large number of householders have a flagpole in their front yards, I always think it looks lovely and patriotic.
Agree though in the UK it would like like an ad for the far right.

I'm not I'm flying it high and proud at the moment on my flagpole. Particularly pleased if it upsets some of the woke mumsnetters too after their previous comments about it.

@thepeopleversuswork

GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing
I just don’t see the point! Why fly your flag within your own country? It’s not clever or brave - surely it’s assumed that everyone is vaguely pro their own country and wants it to do well for our own sake?
Exactly. At best it suggest that you inherently think you're better than other people because of an accident of your birth. I can't really see the upside in going around shouting "I'm English so I'm great".

Do you think this when you go abroad and see people flying their flags? Or even when people fly flags of other nations in the UK?

Where in Ireland do you see this? I have lived here 20 years of my adult life, in 4 different counties and I work in tourism so travel all over. I never see the flag flown outside of hotels, bar government buildings. Genuinely never seen it on a domestic house. Flags for local gaa teams on day of a match I would see. 10 years of living in UK and found it far more common. Much more common when working in US though.

[quote AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken]@thepeopleversuswork

GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing
I just don’t see the point! Why fly your flag within your own country? It’s not clever or brave - surely it’s assumed that everyone is vaguely pro their own country and wants it to do well for our own sake?
Exactly. At best it suggest that you inherently think you're better than other people because of an accident of your birth. I can't really see the upside in going around shouting "I'm English so I'm great".

Do you think this when you go abroad and see people flying their flags? Or even when people fly flags of other nations in the UK?[/quote]
I do a bit, tbh. It just seems such a daft thing to celebrate: its a lottery and there's no skill, intelligence or moral courage involved in being from somewhere. It's a bit like celebrating the fact that you have blonde hair or that your mother was called Marjorie. There's sod all you can do about your nationality, why jump up and down and tell other people you're better than them because of it?

It's a bit different if you're from a minority group, then there's a sense of solidarity with other minorities and a need to stick together within a larger group who may marginalise or exclude you. I would understand why people do it in those circumstances.

. I remember there being a big discussion about the Germans flying the German flag during the World Championship in I think 2006? While this flag was never a part of the Nazi history, it was still perceived as wrong and far-right to fly the flag. They still only do it during the Euro and World Championships

When the world cup was hosted in Germany there was a bit of hand wringing about flag flying because at any inkling of the Germans having any sort of national pride so many people start having connotations.

I live in a village with fewer than 1,000 inhabitants and many of us put out a flag. My Sri Lankan neighbour's asked one of the German neighbors why no flag,and it seemed to start something. In the end most houses did and it looked fab. Then suddenly they were everywhere (and many others too) and it was fabulous.

Mostly they come out for sporting occasions, but also the national holiday, old unity day etc etc. It really is fab to see.

My biggest problem with the England flag is that it's so boring!

You should be glad you’re not nationalists. Nationalism can make me cringe. I get it’s different for some cultures like the USA but I find flag waving in your own country weird. What are you achieving or hoping to achieve by it? I guess I’m influenced in my believes because I have relatives in a town where they put out union jacks for the orange walk every summer. Makes me cringe.

Oh I like the flag itself. Classic design, and I like that it's almost Denmark in reverse.

As my post was aimed at people such as Crankley (from "if you don't like my flag you can't fuck right off" fame), I stand by my comment. I did acknowledge there our people who are trying to claim back the flag from the far right, and I specifically said it wasn't aimed at them.

Far right are arseholes. Yep. I stand by this.

I think there is a massive difference between being patriotic a d being nationalistic. Flying the flag is nationalistic, and the england one in particular has been hijacked by racists. But I still find americans plastering the flag everywhere nationalistic and not patriotic. Patriotism is deeper than that, and a patriotic person isnt afraid to criticise aspects of their country because they want to improve it, they want it to be the best it can be for all its citizens. Nationalism is flag waving and declaring you are already the best

[quote WTFisNext]@TomPinch it's not just a theory it's well documented that the Genoese navy ruled the Med under St George's cross possibly as pirates/privateers and that the English paid to use the flag for safe passage.

I'm cloudy on how it became the English flag TBH because the only parts of English history I'm versed on are where it's substantially intersected with Welsh history. I'm not saying anyone has proprietary interest in the flag but I'd be willing to bet money that if I asked a random 10 people in an English city about the origins of St George's cross that most wouldn't be able to give anything resembling a correct answer.

My point is I think it's very funny that St George's cross been co-opted as a symbol of racist England when the origins and modern use aren't exclusively English (check out the Georgian flag)[/quote]
The Wiki article quotes the Duke of Kent saying that "England and the City of London" adopted the flag for their ships and paid Genoa for safe passage. No other sources are quoted.

But I think we agree on the main point, except that I find it a bit depressing tbh