My Pregnancy, My Wine and DH.

[ThymeCrisis]

I’ve namechanged for this but I’ve been around a long time.

Last night DH and I went out for dinner. I’m 6 months pregnant. It was a lovely local Italian place and he ordered a Peroni, I ordered a glass of Prosecco. It was fairly late because he’d watched the first half of the football in the pub after work first, and I’d joined him later, so he’d already had a fair few pints beforehand.

For context, I have been having the odd (125ml) glass of wine or champagne or Prosecco approx once a week (occasionally twice, but I wouldn’t have two drinks on the same night) since I was 16 weeks or so. I felt too ropey before that to contemplate it. Always have the drink with food, always sip very slowly. I was big into wine before I got pregnant and after doing a lot of research (I do have the Emily Oster book but I read lots more research and have come to the conclusion that it’s a negligible ‘risk’ on such a small scale and felt comfortable with my decision. We are talking 1.5 units here.

DH was a bit quiet after I ordered the Prosecco. We had a nice meal and walked home, he then made himself a gin and tonic, and I had a fake version with an M&S seedlip rip off. I asked him if he was ok and why he’d been a bit off. He then said he had ‘come to terms’ with me having the odd drink at home but he’d felt really uncomfortable with me ordering anything alcoholic out in public, because I was visibly pregnant, and he was really worried about what other people in the restaurant were thinking.

I didn’t notice any judgement, and never have, but frankly I wouldn’t care if there was. He also reminded me of the time we had some family round and I had a glass of champagne, and said he’d felt unhappy about it then too.

The reasons he is giving are that he knows of no one who drank in pregnancy (bar our own mothers who drank according to the guidelines in the mid 80’s at the time) and he thinks a big reason I do it is to ‘challenge’ the patriarchy and to go against the rules, not because I truly fancy a glass of wine. This is bullshit but I have ranted before about pregnant woman being infantilised and deemed not capable of critical thought. We don’t really actually know many other friends that have gone through pregnancy either, but he maintains they would have cut out all alcohol. Yes I know what the NHS guidelines say but I’m of the opinion that they say ‘none at all’ because it’s safer than ‘trusting’ women to not underestimate the units in a glass of wine etc or use it as an excuse to binge. Which I would absolutely never do. I know what a unit is.

For what it’s worth I’ve cut down, but not eliminated, caffeine, and I eat soft cheese and Parma ham too, and I have my steak rare or medium-rare.

He is now saying that the drinking is not something he’s comfortable with anymore and just because I have a book that says it’s fine I just have no way to know if we’ve put our unborn son at risk or not, and if he was pregnant he wouldn’t touch a drop. He can’t handle me ordering a drink in public anymore as it just makes him feel too uncomfortable- it didn’t so much when I didn’t have a bump but he hates the fact that ‘people are judging and looking at us’ now that I do.

I fully expect to get some replies about how he’s right and I am being reckless with my pregnancy, and that it’s only 9 months and why can’t I just cut it out all together, and the answer is, I had weighed up or thought I’d weighed up, whether I truly I had to, and considered myself to be in very safe limits. I like the taste of good wine and the foods it goes with. Yes I’ve tried alcohol free wine and it’s rank, I’d be more likely to cut everything out than drink pretend versions.

So I’ve just woke up this morning upset that he’s had all these thoughts about me causing harm to our baby (for what it’s worth I had a miscarriage before this pregnancy, and I know that was not down to alcohol as I hadn’t drunk at all as I lost it in the first trimester, so it didn’t affect my decision to have the odd drink in this pregnancy) and also that he’s inflicting other peoples judgments on me and just generally making me feel really bad. He’s said that if the child has behavioural difficulties down the line then he can’t rule out that it could be down to drinking.

So hit me with it- am I being unreasonable?

Seriously? Because the chance of harm is absolutely minimal and we can't avoid all risk in life!

If you're going that way, you might as well never drive a car/walk down stairs/leave the fucking house when pregnant because all of those things could result in harm to the baby.

@Lalliebelle

Seriously? Because the chance of harm is absolutely minimal and we can't avoid all risk in life!

If you're going that way, you might as well never drive a car/walk down stairs/leave the fucking house when pregnant because all of those things could result in harm to the baby.

I hate when people use this argument 🤦‍♀️ Yes, technically anything could cause harm but people NEED to leave the house/walk down stairs etc. People don't NEED to drink.

Doing something knowing that you're putting toxins into your unborn baby is pretty shitty.
If you're that dependent on alcohol that you can't drop it for 9 months then you should probably be getting some help.

@Workinghardeveryday

I still don’t get why op would consider drinking any alcohol if there is a chance it would harm her baby? As mothers we do everything to protect our children, why on earth would you drink alcohol? I don’t get it? Because she likes wine? So what?!!!!

My thoughts exactly!

I just don't understand why a mother would willingly take that risk.

@Lalliebelle

Seriously? Because the chance of harm is absolutely minimal and we can't avoid all risk in life!

If you're going that way, you might as well never drive a car/walk down stairs/leave the fucking house when pregnant because all of those things could result in harm to the baby.

This!!!

Some of these responses are fucking ridiculous.

"If you can't give it up for 9 months you have a problem"

Oh give over.

The OP is talking about 1/2 drinks A WEEK.

A friend works on this - is an expert through their job.

The issue is that there is no evidence that FAS is dose-dependent. It remains an open question as to whether it can be caused by a small amount consumed at the wrong time.

Also, British women of fertile ages tend to binge-drink, often including until they know they are pregnant, and under-estimate how much they drink. So there is a widespread underestimation of risk.

Another issue is that the alcohol industry promotes narratives of bodily autonomy, right to judge your own level of risk and so on. These are very attractive to female alcohol consumers.

Yes, technically anything could cause harm but people NEED to leave the house/walk down stairs etc.
People don't NEED to drink.

Unless it's for work they probably don't NEED to leave the house most of the time though. Probably many car trips aren't essential either.

The issue is that there is no evidence that FAS is dose-dependent. It remains an open question as to whether it can be caused by a small amount consumed at the wrong time.

There is a lot of evidence that heavy alcohol consumption causes FAS and the fact that there isn't for low amounts suggest that it is dose dependent. If not a huge proportion of adults would have FAS.

Also, British women of fertile ages tend to binge-drink, often including until they know they are pregnant, and under-estimate how much they drink. So there is a widespread underestimation of risk.

The fact that people binge drink and underestimate how much they drink in early pregnany will lead to an overestimation of risk if anything.

Buy him a copy of Expecting Better

@Tinacollada

Some of these responses are fucking ridiculous.

"If you can't give it up for 9 months you have a problem"

Oh give over.

The OP is talking about 1/2 drinks A WEEK.

Exactly. Ludicrous responses!

I just did a quick Google Scholar search. This looks quite clear:

'Evidence of the effects of drinking ≤32 g/week in pregnancy is sparse. As there was some evidence that even light prenatal alcohol consumption is associated with being SGA and preterm delivery, guidance could advise abstention as a precautionary principle but should explain the paucity of evidence'.

And in the conclusion: 'this specific question is not being researched thoroughly enough, if at all. In addition, there has been no evidence regarding possible benefits of light alcohol consumption versus absence. Further studies, including those using designs that improve causal inference, are required to provide further evidence and a better estimation of the likely effects. Formulating guidance on the basis of the current evidence is challenging. However, describing the paucity of current research and explaining that ‘absence of evidence is not evidence of absence’, appears warranted'.

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/7/7/e015410

This is such an interesting question and I have changed my mind on this - too late for my own pregnancy. I will do differently if I have another.

@JellyTumble if you remove children for moderate drinking then by rights you should for obesity and smoking in pregnancy - risks from those actually outweigh moderate alcohol use in pregnancy.

I'm not sure that many medics would agree that 2 to 3 units a week will harm the baby.

@Belladonna12 They would, if they were speaking in a professional context. Or at least they would say it might harm the baby/ we don't know if it does. Hence those are the NHS guidelines, which doctors working for the NHS work with. Doctors err on the side of caution in what they say.

@NoSquirrels

Seems like he hasn’t given up alcohol, huh? Hasn’t apparently crossed his mind?

I don’t think you’re unreasonable. I was a bit more on the fence about giving measured advice on how you could perhaps help him to deal with his feelings of being judged until you said this:

He’s said that if the child has behavioural difficulties down the line then he can’t rule out that it could be down to drinking.

And now I think he’s an absolute test.

Sorry. But I’d be properly raging at him. If he feels so strongly about it he should have been discussing with you rational arguments and supporting the whole alcohol-free-for-9-months with his actions too.

He’s gone about this discussion shockingly badly, using other people’s discomfort/judgement as a reason rather than his own convictions. And the idea that you’re smashing the patriarchy with a glass of Prosecco when pregnant and that’s why you ordered it is such bullshit.

Good job I’m not the one with the pregnancy hormones because I’m mad at your husband from here!

Her husband is not wrong thou!

A friend works on this - is an expert through their job.

The issue is that there is no evidence that FAS is dose-dependent. It remains an open question as to whether it can be caused by a small amount consumed at the wrong time.

In which case, I’ll ask again, how could it ever have been identified in the first place? It was known about long before any advice not to drink in pregnancy, so the majority of mothers must have drunk small amounts. Strangely, the specific factor common to the mothers whose babies were affected was heavy drinking.

Unless it's for work they probably don't NEED to leave the house most of the time though. Probably many car trips aren't essential either.

Yeah Covid has certainly taught us this!

Stockerton, it’s seems unlikely that anyone will do any real research as it’s so easy to advise, ‘don’t drink at all’. I can’t see any going back from that.

So many on this thread are being applauded for saying sanctimonious things like: 'If there's even the tiniest possible risk that drinking might harm my baby, then why take that risk - simples'.

But there's the 'tiniest risk' that almost ANYTHING could harm the unborn baby: going up stairs, going down stairs, the shampoo you use, being overweight, being underweight, walking near busy roads, driving etc etc. Being a responsible parent involves weighing risks and avoiding things that have a real chance of harm. There is no evidence that having a glass of prosecco once or twice a week in pregnancy - certainly not in the second half of pregnancy where the OP currently is! - carries any genuine risk to her unborn baby.

OP - you go girl!

@Stockerton

I just did a quick Google Scholar search. This looks quite clear:

'Evidence of the effects of drinking ≤32 g/week in pregnancy is sparse. As there was some evidence that even light prenatal alcohol consumption is associated with being SGA and preterm delivery, guidance could advise abstention as a precautionary principle but should explain the paucity of evidence'.

And in the conclusion: 'this specific question is not being researched thoroughly enough, if at all. In addition, there has been no evidence regarding possible benefits of light alcohol consumption versus absence. Further studies, including those using designs that improve causal inference, are required to provide further evidence and a better estimation of the likely effects. Formulating guidance on the basis of the current evidence is challenging. However, describing the paucity of current research and explaining that ‘absence of evidence is not evidence of absence’, appears warranted'.

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/7/7/e015410

This is such an interesting question and I have changed my mind on this - too late for my own pregnancy. I will do differently if I have another.

Correct^

I apologize for getting 'not dose-dependent' wrong, I'm not a scientist.

Not necessarily dose-dependent.

Virtually everyone I know had a glass a week during pregnancy after the first trimester. I can hardly judge, and think it's very unlikely the OP is risking her child.

But that doesn't mean there is an amount known to the scientific literature that is safe to drink, because there isn't.

Most of us don't rely on 'common sense' because it we can see how it has changed so much between our parents' generation and our own, and what we feel to be okay isn't always so.

Also, I'd be cautious about writing it off as a First World Problem. There is a public health problem which is larger than we'd think if just relying on our own personal experience and social groups.

I smoked when I got pregnant with my first. I stopped the day I found out. Omg I wanted a cig and I did for months and months so so much. I didn’t though, not so much as a drag. Let’s be fair the chance of a drag hurting my baby was very small but there is no way I could have done it.
We know alcohol in pregnancy isn’t good. Doesn’t matter how you dress it up it’s not good.
I am not surprised ops husband is annoyed about it, it’s his baby too. Husband should definitely stop drinking too though, dickish move to tell her not too while he still is.
Why oh why would anyone still do something that we know could harm the baby? How is that protecting your child please? And all this about weighing up the pros and cons - rubbish. Like I said we know it’s not good for the baby so you just don’t do it no matter what!!!
No matter how these people justify it to themselves they know they shouldn’t be doing it.

@Posieandpip

And the postet above me is insane and made a really uneducated comment. The occasional small glass of wine isn't going to harm the baby

Its not uneducated. It's bloody common sense! They don't advise drinking in pregnancy, other wise it'll be all over the information that you get at the booking in.

I think Op is selfish and selfish women don't make good mothers @ThymeCrisis its not about you and what you fancy. Its about being selfless and putting someone (your baby) before yourself. If you're struggling now then you are not responsible enough to bring up a baby. Jeez.

But there's the 'tiniest risk' that almost ANYTHING could harm the unborn baby: going up stairs, going down stairs, the shampoo you use, being overweight, being underweight, walking near busy roads, driving etc etc. Being a responsible parent involves weighing risks and avoiding things that have a real chance of harm.

It's all about the cost/benefit, though. Normal life consists of many risks that could technically be avoidable, but as long as you take as much care as you reasonably can, they go hand-in-hand with lots of good, everyday benefits - such as being able to use the upstairs of your house, travel to work or buy food etc.

If we go from the (common sense, imho) pov of no alcohol whilst pregnant, as per the official advice, why would you then choose to deliberately increase your risk by taking in toxic substances that could so very easily be replaced by any number of safe beverages? You might still need to drive to work when you're pregnant, but I wouldn't expect you to suddenly take up bungee jumping or hang gliding once you've had your positive test.

I get that alcohol is a normal part of life for many people, but becoming a parent means that things have to change. Non-parents can decide on a whim that they fancy going out to the pub, grab their coats and go. They can watch 18-rated films at home during the daytime, if they want to. They can drink themselves into a stupor on a Friday night and sleep it off until Saturday evening, should they wish to.

Children change this: once you've begun the path to parenthood, your life will be different and more restrictive, you do have to make sacrifices, you have to put their needs above your wants. Doesn't everybody know this already?

I don't think OP is selfish - I did exactly the same.

We have all been sold a story that there is nothing to worry about other than people tutting, and that a competent autonomous woman can make her own decision on this. It's a permissive narrative wrapped with an empowerment ribbon.

The second half is true, the first half not entirely capturing everything that we know or don't know.

If it were broccoli, would we be discussing it like this? Wine is something enjoyable and habitual that we associate with freedom and adulthood, so it's hard to suddenly see it as a bad thing or potential risk.

Sorry but YABU and incredibly selfish. You’ve risked the health of your baby because you like the taste of wine. There is no safe amount of alcohol except zero.