My Pregnancy, My Wine and DH.

[ThymeCrisis]

I’ve namechanged for this but I’ve been around a long time.

Last night DH and I went out for dinner. I’m 6 months pregnant. It was a lovely local Italian place and he ordered a Peroni, I ordered a glass of Prosecco. It was fairly late because he’d watched the first half of the football in the pub after work first, and I’d joined him later, so he’d already had a fair few pints beforehand.

For context, I have been having the odd (125ml) glass of wine or champagne or Prosecco approx once a week (occasionally twice, but I wouldn’t have two drinks on the same night) since I was 16 weeks or so. I felt too ropey before that to contemplate it. Always have the drink with food, always sip very slowly. I was big into wine before I got pregnant and after doing a lot of research (I do have the Emily Oster book but I read lots more research and have come to the conclusion that it’s a negligible ‘risk’ on such a small scale and felt comfortable with my decision. We are talking 1.5 units here.

DH was a bit quiet after I ordered the Prosecco. We had a nice meal and walked home, he then made himself a gin and tonic, and I had a fake version with an M&S seedlip rip off. I asked him if he was ok and why he’d been a bit off. He then said he had ‘come to terms’ with me having the odd drink at home but he’d felt really uncomfortable with me ordering anything alcoholic out in public, because I was visibly pregnant, and he was really worried about what other people in the restaurant were thinking.

I didn’t notice any judgement, and never have, but frankly I wouldn’t care if there was. He also reminded me of the time we had some family round and I had a glass of champagne, and said he’d felt unhappy about it then too.

The reasons he is giving are that he knows of no one who drank in pregnancy (bar our own mothers who drank according to the guidelines in the mid 80’s at the time) and he thinks a big reason I do it is to ‘challenge’ the patriarchy and to go against the rules, not because I truly fancy a glass of wine. This is bullshit but I have ranted before about pregnant woman being infantilised and deemed not capable of critical thought. We don’t really actually know many other friends that have gone through pregnancy either, but he maintains they would have cut out all alcohol. Yes I know what the NHS guidelines say but I’m of the opinion that they say ‘none at all’ because it’s safer than ‘trusting’ women to not underestimate the units in a glass of wine etc or use it as an excuse to binge. Which I would absolutely never do. I know what a unit is.

For what it’s worth I’ve cut down, but not eliminated, caffeine, and I eat soft cheese and Parma ham too, and I have my steak rare or medium-rare.

He is now saying that the drinking is not something he’s comfortable with anymore and just because I have a book that says it’s fine I just have no way to know if we’ve put our unborn son at risk or not, and if he was pregnant he wouldn’t touch a drop. He can’t handle me ordering a drink in public anymore as it just makes him feel too uncomfortable- it didn’t so much when I didn’t have a bump but he hates the fact that ‘people are judging and looking at us’ now that I do.

I fully expect to get some replies about how he’s right and I am being reckless with my pregnancy, and that it’s only 9 months and why can’t I just cut it out all together, and the answer is, I had weighed up or thought I’d weighed up, whether I truly I had to, and considered myself to be in very safe limits. I like the taste of good wine and the foods it goes with. Yes I’ve tried alcohol free wine and it’s rank, I’d be more likely to cut everything out than drink pretend versions.

So I’ve just woke up this morning upset that he’s had all these thoughts about me causing harm to our baby (for what it’s worth I had a miscarriage before this pregnancy, and I know that was not down to alcohol as I hadn’t drunk at all as I lost it in the first trimester, so it didn’t affect my decision to have the odd drink in this pregnancy) and also that he’s inflicting other peoples judgments on me and just generally making me feel really bad. He’s said that if the child has behavioural difficulties down the line then he can’t rule out that it could be down to drinking.

So hit me with it- am I being unreasonable?

@theleafandnotthetree

As to those who say that they couldn't forgive themselves/would always wonder if they had done something wrong in cases of miscarriage, still-birth, developmental issues.....I think this symptomatic of our modern Western belief that we have that level of control, that if we do everything right everything will be alright, of the industry (and it is an industry) devoted to preganancy and early childhood much of which plays on our fears, combined with a real failure to handle death. Miscarriage in particular is incredibly common and I would assume is rarely about what the mother did or didn't too. Life is fucking hard and unfair, bad things happen and causes are complex and sometimes there are no causes and no one to blame. I think we collectively need to unclench, accept the vagaries of life more stoically and stop judging one another so harshly. It seems that amongst some there is a now a competitive element to who can deliver the 'best' pregancy, no doubt it'll soon move to our behaviour in the 5 years before pregnancy.

Slightly an aside but does it strike anyone else as a kind of a luxury to get so het up over one woman's one glass of wine per week when as we write there are millions of women in the world with very hard lives, little or no prenatal care and no choice but to continue to work and struggle harder than most of us will ever know. A little perspective wouldn't go astray.

I just lost a son with spina bifida, something that happens in the first 28 days after conception. He died at 21+4 when I had to make the decision to let him go before his suffering became acute and prolonged. I will never, ever forgive myself for it, I will never stop wondering if it was something I did, if I could have prevented the loss of him I would have done anything in my power. I would hate for anyone to have to go through anything close to what I'm living.

I don't write this so posters can say "I'm very sorry for your loss", I'm writing it because the loss of my child will stay with me forever, and if I could have done anything to prevent it, I would.

Enjoying a glass of wine is such a small thing to forgo to try and ensure a healthy baby and I think a lot of people probably can't fathom why you would be willing to chance it. Obviously I'm an extreme example but the chances of what happened to me were 0.08%, it still happened. I struggle to understand why would anyone take a gamble with their child's development if they could prevent it?

@SemiFeralDalek thank you for sharing your experience. I think the point I'm sort of making is that I worry we are creating a culture where someone in your circumstances is berating and questioning themselves in a way that I'm not sure previous generations would have done and to no good end in terms of your wellbeing and healing. My mother had a number of miscarriages and I don't think it would have occured to her as being anything other than nature or Gods way. Where does this orthodoxy of creating the perfect gestational conditions - or else! - lead us? It used to be (rightly) socially inacceptable to drink and smoke during pregnancy and food didn't factor much, now seemingly someone can't have one glass of wine without getting absolutely crucified by some here and in wider society. The medical advice keeps shifting based on science but also based on the idea that no level of risk is acceptable. So is our food intake, our level of exercise, our every move while pregnant to be judged, deemed acceptable or unacceptable, cross examined if something goes wrong? Bar the rare cases where people wilfully and persistently do things which are clinically proven to be bad for the baby - and to most sensible people, one glass of wine is far from that - then the things which can and do go wrong are usually without rhyme or reason and must be borne. Feeling terrible about the fact that you didnt do everything right 100% of the time - and who does? - is unnecessary and unhelpful

It does seem a bit strange to me to be fixated on someone having the odd drink but is living and eating healthily overall. Really, to physically give babies the best start in life, I’ve read women should be getting pregnant in late teens/early twenties and ensuring they’re not at all overweight. In our modern society, this is not the norm yet far more babies are born healthy and mothers come through labour ok. Speaking to people of earlier generations(relatives), there didn’t seem to be this anxiety around pregnancy and children even though there were potentially worse outcomes.And as I’ve mentioned before, maternal stress is potentially damaging to the growing baby.

All studies are estimates when they take the data from their study groups and extrapolate it to the population level. Everything medical is like that. It doesn’t make it inaccurate any more than the effectiveness rates for Covid vaccines or the numbers of people who will develop cancer by smoking, or, even the crime surveys produced by ONS that say 1 in 4 women raped. But you don’t dismiss those numbers do you? Not unless you’re a smoking anti-vaxxer who thinks rape is regret.

This study didn't take data and extrapolate it to the whole population. It took data from other studies without really knowing whether they were of good quality. It is likely that they would have been very variable. Whilst any study can be inaccurate ones that rely on self reported information are even more likely to be accurate particularly when they are trying to collect data on a subject that is likely to be sensitive. Many women will not want to admit drinking alcohol during pregnancy particularly if they are told their child might have been effected by it and the taboo will vary from country to country. Furthermore, the authors say that for many studies it wasn't clear how FAS was defined. There will be huge variations between studies and considering that many will have only looked at one country it is difficult to know whether the difference in apparent FAS in a country/region is real or whether it is due to different data collection for alcohol consumption and FAS.

In this case, the female partner wouldn't even be the father-to-be and so would have even less right to an opinion.

So two lesbians in a long-term relationship who have both decided to use a sperm donor for a much-wanted baby - and the partner who is not carrying the child (and is presumably going to adopt the baby ASAP after birth) should have no say in any risks her partner takes during pregnancy whatsoever? Morally speaking?

It does seem a bit strange to me to be fixated on someone having the odd drink but is living and eating healthily overall. Really, to physically give babies the best start in life, I’ve read women should be getting pregnant in late teens/early twenties and ensuring they’re not at all overweight.

But you can't roll your age back. Losing weight is achievable, and desirable, but often takes time and a lot of effort. How difficult is it to not drink alcohol when you know you're pregnant and that drinking in pregnancy has been proven time and time again to be a risk to the baby's health? You may be overweight because you drink far too much, but as soon as you know you're pregnant, you need to stop.

If you were fat because you had eaten loads of chocolate over the past decade and multiple international studies had proved a strong link between eating chocolate in pregnancy and babies' health being compromised, as soon as you discover that you're pregnant, you would know that now is the time when you need to stop eating any chocolate for (up to) 9 months.

But you can't roll your age back. Losing weight is achievable, and desirable, but often takes time and a lot of effort. How difficult is it to not drink alcohol when you know you're pregnant and that drinking in pregnancy has been proven time and time again to be a risk to the baby's health? You may be overweight because you drink far too much, but as soon as you know you're pregnant, you need to stop.

Yes-my point was that people are NOT doing these things, no one judges them, more healthy babies are born than ever. We need to get risk in perspective. Also the link between an unhealthy weight and risk to baby doesn’t depend on the food eaten.

@VettiyaIruken

So he isn't bothered about the (non existent) harm to the baby, he just doesn't want strangers to possibly have thoughts and opinions that won't affect you in any way?

🙄 If it was fear for the baby I'd at least have some sympathy and suggest he does some reading.

It's not an no existent harm to the baby, If you drink any alcohol during pregnancy you risk fetal alcohol syndrome. 2/3 units is a large amount of alcohol to be drinking weekly when pregnant and the risk is a real reality. I'd be excluded to think that if you need to drink 1.5/3 units of alcohol a week In pregnancy you have a problem with alcohol

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

In this case, the female partner wouldn't even be the father-to-be and so would have even less right to an opinion.

So two lesbians in a long-term relationship who have both decided to use a sperm donor for a much-wanted baby - and the partner who is not carrying the child (and is presumably going to adopt the baby ASAP after birth) should have no say in any risks her partner takes during pregnancy whatsoever? Morally speaking?

Yes. Because morally and legally speaking, we have bodily autonomy.

It is the choice of the pregnant woman to have a glass of wine, paracetamol, soft cheese, be overweight, cross the road, have an epidural, have a termination.

Anything less is a slippery slope.

It's not an no existent harm to the baby, If you drink any alcohol during pregnancy you risk fetal alcohol syndrome. 2/3 units is a large amount of alcohol to be drinking weekly when pregnant and the risk is a real reality.

How on earth do you think fetal alcohol syndrome was ever discovered if the risk was from drinking any alcohol? It’s been around since the days when most women would have drunk at least some alcohol in pregnancy. There must have been something to distinguish the mothers whose babies suffered with FAS from other mothers, and that was surely the consumption of large amounts of alcohol!

I'd be excluded to think that if you need to drink 1.5/3 units of alcohol a week In pregnancy you have a problem with alcohol.

Drinking 1.5 to 3 units of alcohol a week does not an alcoholic make!

@CecilyP

It's not an no existent harm to the baby, If you drink any alcohol during pregnancy you risk fetal alcohol syndrome. 2/3 units is a large amount of alcohol to be drinking weekly when pregnant and the risk is a real reality.

How on earth do you think fetal alcohol syndrome was ever discovered if the risk was from drinking any alcohol? It’s been around since the days when most women would have drunk at least some alcohol in pregnancy. There must have been something to distinguish the mothers whose babies suffered with FAS from other mothers, and that was surely the consumption of large amounts of alcohol!

I'd be excluded to think that if you need to drink 1.5/3 units of alcohol a week In pregnancy you have a problem with alcohol.

Drinking 1.5 to 3 units of alcohol a week does not an alcoholic make!

If you're insisting on drinking 2-3 units a week while you're pregnant - even knowing that it's against medical advice to do so - then I think arguably that you have a problem. There are lots of other little treats that you can give yourself that don't risk your baby.

I love booze. I really enjoy it. I just loved my unborn baby more, and the same would go for any future pregnancies I may have.

I didn't drink at all during pregnancy, mostly (and embarrassingly) because I actually do have a problem with alcohol and I find it easier to have none at all then to just have a small glass. And I just felt it wasn't worth the risk - if something did go wrong I wanted to be able to look back and know that I did everything I possibly could to minimise any harm to her. Saying that, the rational part of me knew one glass of wine would not actually cause a miscarriage.

Anyway I can see why youe DH is concerned but he's got a bit of a cheek having a go at you after several drinks himself. And going in a huff with you while you're out? Pathetic. I think if he feels so strongly about it he should offer to give up with you (my partner did except for his birthday which I really appreciated).

I haven’t read the full thread but I’m quite open with family/ friends/ colleagues about having approx a glass of wine a week. I’m 25 weeks now and I’ve probably had around 12-15 alcoholic drinks that I can count up so far. All separately.

I will also be ordering one in public when I go out for food (when I feel covid safe to do so…) as it’s our wedding anniversary over the summer

If my husband had an issue with that, he can stay sober too. He won’t, so why should I just because of being afraid what strangers think

If you genuinely believe there is little to no risk, then crack on with it and ignore what judgy people think/ say. That’s good practice for being a parent anyway- you can’t please all of the people all of the time

@JellyTumble no one is going to remove her baby as she's had a drink once a week in pregnancy. Nor will a HCP step in. And nor should they!

[quote Sweak]@JellyTumble no one is going to remove her baby as she's had a drink once a week in pregnancy. Nor will a HCP step in. And nor should they![/quote]
Unfortunately not, that’s why I said should.

Healthcare professionals should step in when pregnant women are neglecting their unborn baby by drinking at minimum every week.

If you're insisting on drinking 2-3 units a week while you're pregnant - even knowing that it's against medical advice to do so - then I think arguably that you have a problem.

I disagree. If you really had a problem, you’d still be consuming more than 1.5 to 3 units despite being pregnant. It is still less than what was deemed to be the medically acceptable limit prior to 2008.

He won’t, so why should I

@Fro93 “Why should I?” How selfish. You are quite happy to cause harm to your unborn baby just because you don’t want to give up drink.

@JellyTumble they should not. Social services and HCP will be dealing with mothers who have addiction problems. Services are stretched, if they intervened in every pregnancy where the mother drank once a week there would be serious cases which wouldn't get sufficient attention.

I wouldn't drink in pregnancy but I think your response is completely ott.

Completely OTT! Social Services are very overstretched but, even if they weren’t, there would be absolutely no need to intervene if someone drinks 2 to 3 units per week. It certainly wouldn’t make anyone too drunk to care for a new born.

Yes cecilyP, even if services weren't overstretched it would be a complete over reaction. No court would remove a child for this anyway. And nor should they.

I hope the OP has stopped reading now as some of these comments are just plain awful

If you're insisting on drinking 2-3 units a week while you're pregnant - even knowing that it's against medical advice to do so - then I think arguably that you have a problem.

I'm not sure that many medics would agree that 2 to 3 units a week will harm the baby. Some would have had that themselves when pregnant as until recently women were advised that it was okay. I think guidance was changed because there was concern that some were drinking more rather than due to any new evidence that even small amount are harmful.

I just find it hard to believe that it is harmful considering that not everyone born before 2000 has FAS. Obviously there is no 100% certainty but you could say that about everything. Do those frothing about OP's one drink a week ever get into a car when pregnant because that's a risk and not always essential. With covid probably going out at all is a risk but noone would tell a pregnant women who goes out that her children should be taken into care. I think a bit more prepective is needed.

You are right, he is wrong, Mumsnet is not a place to have a sensible conversation about alcohol.

I still don’t get why op would consider drinking any alcohol if there is a chance it would harm her baby? As mothers we do everything to protect our children, why on earth would you drink alcohol? I don’t get it? Because she likes wine? So what?!!!!

@Workinghardeveryday

I still don’t get why op would consider drinking any alcohol if there is a chance it would harm her baby? As mothers we do everything to protect our children, why on earth would you drink alcohol? I don’t get it? Because she likes wine? So what?!!!!

Exactly!