My Pregnancy, My Wine and DH.

[ThymeCrisis]

I’ve namechanged for this but I’ve been around a long time.

Last night DH and I went out for dinner. I’m 6 months pregnant. It was a lovely local Italian place and he ordered a Peroni, I ordered a glass of Prosecco. It was fairly late because he’d watched the first half of the football in the pub after work first, and I’d joined him later, so he’d already had a fair few pints beforehand.

For context, I have been having the odd (125ml) glass of wine or champagne or Prosecco approx once a week (occasionally twice, but I wouldn’t have two drinks on the same night) since I was 16 weeks or so. I felt too ropey before that to contemplate it. Always have the drink with food, always sip very slowly. I was big into wine before I got pregnant and after doing a lot of research (I do have the Emily Oster book but I read lots more research and have come to the conclusion that it’s a negligible ‘risk’ on such a small scale and felt comfortable with my decision. We are talking 1.5 units here.

DH was a bit quiet after I ordered the Prosecco. We had a nice meal and walked home, he then made himself a gin and tonic, and I had a fake version with an M&S seedlip rip off. I asked him if he was ok and why he’d been a bit off. He then said he had ‘come to terms’ with me having the odd drink at home but he’d felt really uncomfortable with me ordering anything alcoholic out in public, because I was visibly pregnant, and he was really worried about what other people in the restaurant were thinking.

I didn’t notice any judgement, and never have, but frankly I wouldn’t care if there was. He also reminded me of the time we had some family round and I had a glass of champagne, and said he’d felt unhappy about it then too.

The reasons he is giving are that he knows of no one who drank in pregnancy (bar our own mothers who drank according to the guidelines in the mid 80’s at the time) and he thinks a big reason I do it is to ‘challenge’ the patriarchy and to go against the rules, not because I truly fancy a glass of wine. This is bullshit but I have ranted before about pregnant woman being infantilised and deemed not capable of critical thought. We don’t really actually know many other friends that have gone through pregnancy either, but he maintains they would have cut out all alcohol. Yes I know what the NHS guidelines say but I’m of the opinion that they say ‘none at all’ because it’s safer than ‘trusting’ women to not underestimate the units in a glass of wine etc or use it as an excuse to binge. Which I would absolutely never do. I know what a unit is.

For what it’s worth I’ve cut down, but not eliminated, caffeine, and I eat soft cheese and Parma ham too, and I have my steak rare or medium-rare.

He is now saying that the drinking is not something he’s comfortable with anymore and just because I have a book that says it’s fine I just have no way to know if we’ve put our unborn son at risk or not, and if he was pregnant he wouldn’t touch a drop. He can’t handle me ordering a drink in public anymore as it just makes him feel too uncomfortable- it didn’t so much when I didn’t have a bump but he hates the fact that ‘people are judging and looking at us’ now that I do.

I fully expect to get some replies about how he’s right and I am being reckless with my pregnancy, and that it’s only 9 months and why can’t I just cut it out all together, and the answer is, I had weighed up or thought I’d weighed up, whether I truly I had to, and considered myself to be in very safe limits. I like the taste of good wine and the foods it goes with. Yes I’ve tried alcohol free wine and it’s rank, I’d be more likely to cut everything out than drink pretend versions.

So I’ve just woke up this morning upset that he’s had all these thoughts about me causing harm to our baby (for what it’s worth I had a miscarriage before this pregnancy, and I know that was not down to alcohol as I hadn’t drunk at all as I lost it in the first trimester, so it didn’t affect my decision to have the odd drink in this pregnancy) and also that he’s inflicting other peoples judgments on me and just generally making me feel really bad. He’s said that if the child has behavioural difficulties down the line then he can’t rule out that it could be down to drinking.

So hit me with it- am I being unreasonable?

If you need your DH to give up booze, soft cheese and raw steak for motivation then definitely get him to do that!

I don't think you should drink during pregnancy so YABU. I'm currently TTC and me and my DH had this debate / he actually thinks it's fine but I don't understand why on earth you'd risk it? Honestly, how do you know the same time a major organ was being formed and you've affected it whilst drinking? A small amount is nothing to an adult but an undeveloped baby is very sensitive even to warm bath water!

If coffee is dangerous to drink in pregnancy than alcohol most certainly is - I think you should see your husbands perspective a little

This might be worth a read for anyone interested in the damage that alcohol can do

www.fasdnetwork.org/what-is-fasd.html

Is a few glasses of wine really worth the risk?

My first thought was given what i know about fasd i would not drink if i got pregnant now but i will admit i had the odd glass in pregnancy x

Did I miss a drip feed where the DH transpired to be an absolute raving lunatic?

He would probably need help for paranoia then

There was another thread the other day about domestic abuse displays in public. Just about everybody commenting was saying that, if they would do that in public, imagine how much worse they must be in private. IIRC, not a single person said that these men who scream in their wives’ faces in Tesco or beat their children around the heads and swear at them in the park were probably just a bit overdramatic and were almost certainly lovely, kind and gentle at home.

How is anybody to know whether the pregnant woman is having a one-off treat at a special occasion out or if she’s just drinking out because she happens to be out, and when she’s at home, she drinks there instead?

Standard advice on MN is, if you see anybody showing a behaviour where children might be harmed, you should report it and let the authorities investigate. Be honest: if you got a call or letter from your GP, SS or any official body, saying they’d had people express potential concerns and just wanted to ask you a few questions, maybe interview you and ask you to keep a diary or look around your home, speak to your family/friends etc., would you be nonchalant about it, assuming you’d be checked out and fully exonerated (albeit ‘reminded’ what the NHS advises)? Most people would be absolutely mortified from the very first contact they received.

my son has FAS. I work as a midwife specialising in dependancy issues. I wouldnt be at all concerned about your drinking.

This is a genuine question, but do you believe that you can trust all of your patients/clients absolutely when they report back to you how much they’ve been drinking? It seems to be widely acknowledged that a great many people who drink alcohol will lie about how much (or even fool themselves) and minimise how much they drink; with that in mind, would it be reasonable to wonder if those responsible for causing FAS – or even those in a position to potentially cause FAS – i.e. any pregnant woman who drinks alcohol – would be at least as likely to not tell/accept the truth as the rest of the population – and given the widespread knowledge of what the NHS advises, quite probably far more so?

It’s only 9 months. Why can’t you give up alcohol, soft cheese and raw meat for 9 months? There is no safe limit. It’s really sad that your “one joy” is drinking wine every single week. I’m not teetotal or pregnant, but I don’t rely on alcohol every week.

@CutieBear where does OP say one joy?

This was never going to end well @ThymeCrisis

As a mum who gave birth during the 1970's I still find it hard to understand the extremism of the rules for pregnancy.

There were none in my day nor my mother's time.

Not all babies are harmed by mum drinking the ODD glass of wine and probably in fact better off if mum is less stressed.
If one glasss of wine with food makes enjoy your evening that is a GOOD thing.
Many children it seems are being born with various defects/ disabilites or neuro issues. Is anyone trying to find out why?
My guess is the chemicals people use on their skin, in their homes and well everywhere.

I think a glass of wine would improve health. Babies with FAS have had a mum that drank far too much. not a glass of wine.

I think it's hypocritical for your h to think that you should be teetotal when he ordered a beer. If he ordered a soft drink then he may have had a point

@Maray1967

I had one very small glass per week - my Friday night treat. My midwife said that was fine. I don’t drink tea or coffee so caffeine was no issue and I did give up the soft cheese and pate and steered well clear of salad bars - more likely to get listeria from those than from Camembert. But my DH also kept the drink right down - he actually said that he couldn’t drink much if I couldn’t. So I think you could cut down but he is also out of order here. I hope he isn’t going to try to control what pain relief you can have in labour. If I were you I would address that now.

For goodness sake...so ridiculous. He isn’t controlling her...it’s his baby as well and he is allowed to express an opinion. Some women can be very bullying towards their husbands on this issue. Yes, the woman is carrying the baby but guess what, fathers are allowed to have a view as well.

That book! Urgh! For starters it's written by an economist not a hcp hell she's not even really a scientist!

Frankly I feel it's a book used by some pregnant women to justify not following advice that HAS been assessed and collated and arrived at by research and investigation by scientists and hcps that is for their and their baby's benefit

Regarding alcohol in particular the truth is that because it would be unethical to do human trials on such a study we don't actually know how much - or how little - alcohol affects babies in the womb

What we do know is that FAS is not the only issue caused by alcohol in pregnancy, we also know that there are varying levels of FAS severity. What we do know for definite is that alcohol is harmful and increases the risk not only to the child's lifelong health but to the health and length of the pregnancy, the nature and outcome of the birth and the health of the mother

Personally being honest

Yes I would judge an obviously pregnant mother drinking alcohol in public - I wouldn't say anything cos not worth the hassle and very unlikely to change said mother's attitude, same applies to smoking and other unhealthy behaviours

I lost 3 before dd and dds pregnancy was touch and go and the birth was complicated too.

I stopped taking alcohol, caffeine, soft cheeses and raw egg products etc as soon as I was ttc (and yes I know many aren't ttc and are pregnant before they realise) I also ate as healthily as possible eliminating as many processed foods as I could

I couldn't have lived with myself if anything had gone wrong because of something I had done that was easily avoidable.

I've friends and family that have lost babies and/or had babies who's health has been affected by things like listeria infections or things they ingested or even where they don't know for sure but they didn't know they were pregnant so were drinking/smoking heavily and then mc and the agony they went through even just wondering IF that was why there was a problem I wouldn't wish that heartache on anyone.

There have been a few studies that the results suggest that even a small amount of alcohol at certain stages of pregnancy are harmful to the baby.

I just wouldn't take the risk and tbh I don't understand women who do

It's such a simple thing NOT to do UNLESS you are an addict - and I don't think one glass once a week (and that's if op is being honest - I think pps need to be aware we only have ops word for this - the father of the baby may be saying something because he knows her and knows it's more) Is likely an indication of addiction so in theory based on op being honest should be very easy to give up for just 3 months at this stage.

It's a time of life when you have to prioritise someone else's health above yours to a degree, temporarily, because that baby has no choice, no say in how their health is protected and affected.

You seem very determined to justify continuing to drink, that concerns me and apparently concerns the father too.

It’s easy to say, it’s a lot harder to do.

Unless you're an addict it really shouldn't be a "lot" harder to do.

I didn't find it hard at all and neither did most of my friends and family. I socialised plenty while pregnant I even went on holiday to a part of the world famous for my favourite wine (booked before I was pregnant), to weddings, birthday parties, Christmas parties, NYE party... I had a good time without drinking at all.

My ex also gave up alcohol while I was pregnant with dd and he didn't find it a problem either.

But then, DH also stopped drinking so he was sober if we ever needed to go to hospital.

Yep same - and we did indeed have a few trips and somehow it almost always needed to be at weekends/bank holidays when it would have cost a fortune to get a taxi!

I’ll add that neither of us gave up alcohol when TTC either, which I think is current advice

That's because you are pregnant before you know you are. Some women can be a fair few months along before they know. My mum always had light periods anyway and she didn't know she was pregnant with me until she was nearly 5 month gone.

if I thought that was in any way a possibility

But it is a possibility and you're still not stopping.

last time I checked I enjoying wine didn’t automatically equate to alcoholism

It's hard to assess. It's not only amounts it's the relationship you have with alcohol which is a factor in addiction

and I think you are underplaying your drinking a little bit.

I get a strong sense we're not getting the whole truth about how much and how often op is drinking. Something about the way they're coming across can't put my finger on it

but I don't think it's fair to pretend it's an absurd concept or that women who don't drink at all are ignorant, naive, blind little sheep who can't think for themselves.

Absolutely - that's quite insulting but it suits ops narrative doesn't it?

I was an hcp, I know how to read the research and it was because of this that even though it wasn't the nhs advice at the time I chose to eliminate caffeine and certain food additives myself

My mum smoked and I was born under expected weight and now I'm asthmatic.

Same here.

@CynsterBitch just because you were apparently unaffected by your mothers smoking doesn't make the wealth of research on this wrong

But I know lots of women who totally cut out caffeine too or won’t take painkillers. Why, If that’s in fact totally fine and no risk at all?

There's a LOT of research on the harm of caffeine in pregnancy and there was over 20 years ago when I was pregnant with dd too that's not unfounded

Regarding painkillers that's a cost/benefit analysis as pain is not something someone should be in unless absolutely necessary and again there's been a LOT of research on which painkillers and how much

There’ve been maybe three weeks when I’ve had a second drink at some point on a different day, at a funeral for example and at a family reunion

This feels like more minimising and more justification.

I also feel the Dhs comment about harm to the baby was likely him trying to get through to op in frustration

OP has done her research

No she hasn't. She has used one book by a non scientist to justify ignoring the research and advice by a world full of other scientists and hcps

Also, you say you take the small risk. Small risk of a drink, small risk of rare stake, small risk of Parma ham. Seems to be a lot to small risks there. doesn't it?

Op genuine question - did you want this pregnancy? Was it planned?

Blunt opinion? I think this much determination to carrying on drinking alcohol smacks of dependency.

Yea the more pp posts the more I think so too

Ok fine- I think of it as occasional at least compared to previous pregnancy

Yea that suggests you may have been drinking more than is healthy before the pregnancy which means you may have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol anyway

But 1.5 units of alcohol doesn’t constitute drunk driving in England

Yea I think you have an inappropriate sense of what effects alcohol has on the body, very much minimising and underestimating those effects.

I'm in Scotland wheee the drink driving rules are effectively you don't drink and drive at all. Because even a small amount of alcohol does impair reactions, eyesight etc

How confident are you that she is drinking at a level that does not risk permanently damaging her child?

Agreed. I'm certainly not.

I totally disagree. I've actually found the discussion very much swayed towards the normalisation of alcohol dependency on Mumsnet tbh.

Agree with this too I've certainly been flamed for my comments on this on more than one occasion.

But that's usually when the pregnant mother is genuinely only having an occasional small drink which op is not. Op is drinking regularly and tbh at this stage I'm not totally convinced it's only a small glass or only one glass at a time

The regularity is certainly concerning to say the least

I think he's right, drinking while pregnant is selfish. And I think you look for Confirmation Bias, you want to keep drinking so searched out and latched on to any information or book that says it's ok, then decide on your own why the NHS says nil - to ease your conscience. It's like you only latch onto the 'research' that supports what you want to believe.
Alcohol is a toxin and a carcinogen for adults; what do you think it would do to a fetus? You're putting your selfish wants first, before your unborn child's health.

Sorry OP, I also think he's right especially since you've been eating things like soft cheese and steak as well.

I would be interested to know how much you drank before the pregnancy because one glass of wine a week personally I would see as a regular drink rather than occasional. An occasional would be once in a blue moon such as at a wedding or birthday.

Think about it like this, yes its your body and you ultimately have autonomy but what if when the baby is here if he decides to take a risk with baby that he thinks is fine and you arent comfortable with?

@goldfinchfan

As a mum who gave birth during the 1970's I still find it hard to understand the extremism of the rules for pregnancy.

There were none in my day nor my mother's time.

Not all babies are harmed by mum drinking the ODD glass of wine and probably in fact better off if mum is less stressed.
If one glasss of wine with food makes enjoy your evening that is a GOOD thing.
Many children it seems are being born with various defects/ disabilites or neuro issues. Is anyone trying to find out why?
My guess is the chemicals people use on their skin, in their homes and well everywhere.

I think a glass of wine would improve health. Babies with FAS have had a mum that drank far too much. not a glass of wine.

Well research has been updated since the 1970s, so the argument that it was fine in your day doesn't hold water. There was a time when smoking wasn't thought to be dangerous and it clearly is.

However I agree that babies with FAS have a mum who drank far too much, not like the op describes. I suppose the issue is we don't know conclusively the effects of more moderate alcohol consumption.

In fact I'm starting to feel this thread is just becoming one big pile on against the OP. It feels the thread has taken a turn in a whole new level of judgement. You can make your point you agree with the husband without calling her names like selfish like pp did.

[quote SadieCow]@CutieBear where does OP say one joy?

This was never going to end well @ThymeCrisis [/quote]
Her second post: I just feel he’s taken away any small joy I had in a nice small glass of something at the end of a long working week

@CutieBear she said "small joy" of having a glass of wine, not it's her only joy?

Do you have comprehension issues?

I can't believe you've quoted what OP said, when it's not what was said!

@goldfinchfan, FAS is a spectrum disorder.

A baby can be affected in different ways. The spectrum is as follows:
Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS)
Alcohol-Related Neurodevelopmental Disorder (ARND)
Alcohol-Related Birth Defects (ARBD)
Neurobehavioral Disorder Associated with Prenatal Alcohol Exposure (ND-PAE):

There is no known safe amount of alcohol a woman can drink during pregnancy.

If alcohol is necessary for enjoyment of a meal, or to wind down, then the individual, pregnant or not, should examine their relationship with the drug.

You are not being unreasonable at all, nothing wrong with odd drinks in pregnancy, who care what others think, he needs to toughen up!

So he doesn't agree with your decision making and his discomfort increases when he is in company - suggests when he sees things through the eyes of others, it intensifies his view of right and wrong. I would say this is wider than decisions about alcohol and pregnancy - you are about to become parents and will have to get ready to have many more conversations where your views differ. Parenting brings many positive experiences to couple life but it also brings out other aspects of our identity that may not have been noticeable. Find ways of talking it through so you both understand each others perspective.

Women who drink alcohol during pregnancy are very selfish IMO. Then again after 15 years of infertility and 5 miscarriages my views are bound to be different to others! It's 9 months out of your life that's it. Surely unless you are dependent on alcohol you can bloody give it up for that amount of time. Preferably without also expecting everyone else around you to also give it up too. For me vaping was hard to give up but I did it because I wanted to give the life inside me the best chance possible, but I never begrudged my OH a vape, limiting my caffeine intake was hard but I wanted to try and reduce my risk of another miscarriage and switching to decaf and non caffeinated drinks was a sacrifice I was willing to make

@WhenISnappedAndFarted

Sorry OP, I also think he's right especially since you've been eating things like soft cheese and steak as well.

I would be interested to know how much you drank before the pregnancy because one glass of wine a week personally I would see as a regular drink rather than occasional. An occasional would be once in a blue moon such as at a wedding or birthday.

You consider having 52 units of alcohol in a YEAR to be a 'regular' drinker, seriously?

OP I honestly think this thread is not refelective of wider public opinion or practice so please don't feel bad or may too much attention to those accusing you of all sorts. The great majority og women I know, most of them good conscientious people and quite a few of them medical professionals had the odd drink and/or similar to yourself while pregnant. And no issues with any of their children by the way. Christ if I had to choose between moderate, balanced and relaxed you and some of the sanctimonious, censorious and uptight people on this thread as a mother, I know which I'd choose

Poor baby. :(

Maybe I do need to toughen up and maybe I’ve been stupid. I know I’ve sober the afternoon in tears at some of the accusations flying around on this thread.

One of the most hurtful is the poster that says I’m not being honest about my drinking and it’s probably more. It fucking isn’t. I’m not a monster. I said earlier anything I say in my own defence will sound like minimising and justifying to those posters who’ve made up their minds already about what a selfish terrible person I am)

Yes, I wanted my baby. Yes, I planned for my baby. How fucking dare you.