AIBU to think Maya scored a victory for common sense today?

[DancesWithTortoises]

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402922169559044096?s=20

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

The law just cannot be allowed to tell people what to think.

Hurrah for Maya!

Social media platforms ought urgently to take advice on whether they are impermissibly suppressing European speech and thought with a Californian scold’s bridle. Ooh! I do like that!

@littlbrowndog

www.linkedin.com/pulse/forstater-judgment-what-next-peter-daly

Good read from mayas lawyer

"The judgment acknowledges the national discussion about sex and gender that has taken place over recent years as the “transgender debate”. The era of “No Debate” around sex and gender, if it ever existed, is over. In the course of this national discussion, many Gender Critical people – overwhelmingly women – have been the subject of personal abuse, threats, the loss of jobs and livelihoods and even physical assault. This has been referred to as occurring on “both sides” of the discussion. But it is difficult to find evidence that equal apportionment has in fact occurred: overwhelmingly it appears that Gender Critical women have borne the brunt of it. Those women now have their legal protections affirmed at law."

All of this has made me wonder if we're likely to see a flurry of court cases brought by those women who have suffered discrimination?

@ShowOfHands

We are not raped because of our feelings.

We are not paid less because of an internal identity.

FGM doesn't happen because we think female thoughts.

Forced marriage doesn't occur because of assignation of gender at birth.

My 14yr old daughter is not groped at school because she identifies with a gender role.

Our oppression is because of our bodies and so must be our protections.

It's depressing to think I had a similar though less in-depth conversation with my father years ago.

He replied to a point of mine with something like:

'So women are at a disadvantage in society simply because of their physical differences that men have taken advantage of?'

'Yes'

'Hmph...'

I got the impression he didn't quite agree but he couldn't think why.

Sadly he's very much TWAW these days.

He also has a chip on his shoulder about being a white man who doesn't get diversity perks.

[quote peadarm]@CandyLeBonBon

Just as I don't believe that the wafer and wine in the catholic faith are ACTUALLY the body and blood of Christ (nor do I believe in God at all in fact) But I recognise your right to do so.
A devout Catholic could (but wouldn't) retort that the eucharist is the body of Christ, and denying the reality of a belief that is so deeply intrinsic to who they are, causes deep hurt, amounts to bigotry, and should be banned.[/quote]
That was my point. Scientifically, we know it isn't. If a devout catholic were to compel me to believe that a wafer changes its chemical composition once it's blessed by a priest and truly becomes the flesh of Christ, on pain of legal action, ostracism and threats of death and torture, I'd be just as pissed off as if I were being compelled to believe humans can change sex.

I'll respect your right to believe it. I won't be forced to believe it just because you do.

I THINK we're saying the same thing?

Just as I don't believe that the wafer and wine in the catholic faith are ACTUALLY the body and blood of Christ (nor do I believe in God at all in fact) But I recognise your right to do so.
Don't bring up that old transubstantiation chestnut again or we'll be having another papal schism/reformation

@MoonCatcher

Just as I don't believe that the wafer and wine in the catholic faith are ACTUALLY the body and blood of Christ (nor do I believe in God at all in fact) But I recognise your right to do so. Don't bring up that old transubstantiation chestnut again or we'll be having another papal schism/reformation

Sorry - I'll get back in my box!! 😂

All of this has made me wonder if we're likely to see a flurry of court cases brought by those women who have suffered discrimination

I do hope so.

Congratulations Maya and all the brilliant women of mumsnet and FWR who donated and supported to allow this action to take place. many have been stifled in real life to express these opinions due to worry about jobs and livelihoods, but by donating to these legal appeals you help those who are brave enough to put their heads above the parapet and the means to achieve these victories for all of us and we are eternally grateful.
£20 is a small price to pay compared to what it costs the Maya's and Keira's and posies of this world in personal stress and anxiety.

@MilkLady02

Women have XX sex chromosomes, men have XY. Trans women have XY. If in thousands of years archaeologists dig up the remains of a trans woman and run a DNA test, they will conclude the body is male. It’s biology. My definition of woman/female is XX chromosomes.

They don't even need to look at the DNA. The skeleton of a male and female is different.

All of this has made me wonder if we're likely to see a flurry of court cases brought by those women who have suffered discrimination

I hope all of those women who were harassed by the police for the supposed pre-crime of having gender critical beliefs can make use of the ruling.

@SeaShoreGalore

Kier Starmer believes in self ID?!?!

Oh dear.

Yep!

Final nail in the Labour Party's coffin.

@Whatwouldscullydo

It's just knee jerk, unthinking transactivism. They haven't even considered what it means

Never sign anything you didn't read....

This whole " feminists say it so it must be wrong " thing has gotten very tired..

I like that saying!

this whole gender ideology has revealed the deep, deep level of cultural misogyny that exists across the world. I really think the only reason the extreme gender ideology (transwomen are literally women and ANY man can say he is and must be treated exactly as a woman in all circumstances) has taken hold to such an extent such a grip is because it 'only' adversely affects women, and no-one really gives a crap about that.

Totally agree @Notyours

And for this judgement to come out when we’re hearing about the normalisation of sexual abuse, harassment and violence that girls experience at school - in some cases in primary schools.

They don't even need to look at the DNA. The skeleton of a male and female is different. According to some here that difference is exaggerated for effect. Twitter scrapes have delighted followers laughing at the idea of a Q angle having any material meaning!

Excellent news!
I cried when I heard the judgement and now I can't stop smiling.
Great day, thank you so much Maya!

IntoAir, it is awful isn’t it? I had tears in my eyes reading about the sexual harassment of girls and the normalisation of porn. I cannot imagine how hard it must be for them on a daily basis in schools.

Are we in addition to that going to add “if you don’t change with this penis person in your class who claims that they are a girl then you are bigots?

So indebted to Maya and all the brave people who supported her. The suffragettes may be long gone, but she and JKR prove that middle-aged British women are still a formidable force to the reckoned with! Proud to be one of them.

This is such good news and presents an interesting challenge for those who have been actively discriminating against women who hold gender critical views.

I wonder what this means for the venues who will not accept bookings from GC women's rights groups.

@CandyLeBonBon

I THINK we're saying the same thing?
Yes, I was running with your analogy to try and illustrate the absurdity of the "TWAW - no debate" position.

I'm so happy about this ruling. My employer is signed up to Stonewall and I have genuinely been afraid of losing my job for my opinions.

This is a good take from Debbie Hayton, a transwoman.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/maya-forstater-s-win-is-a-victory-for-rational-thinking

A very brave woman. Well done Maya.

Absolutely shocking that it needed to go to appeal in a court of law to get such a result though.

Will girls who have been made to change with 'transgirls' be able to claim discrimination on the grounds that they do not believe the boy is a girl? Will many school policies will be shown as discriminatory because they result in a worse outcome for those with a protected belief?

Should be some really interesting court cases to challenge these ideas.

this whole gender ideology has revealed the deep, deep level of cultural misogyny that exists across the world

In western countries the whole TERF thing - and the tsunami of abuse directed at women - has normalised misogyny.

And the condemnation of women while studiously ignoring the abuse, on the part of mainstream politicians has legitimised it and served to provide a permissive environment in which misogynistic abuse and crime flourishes.

The Judge in the original case was so obviously captured by the TRA ideology it was excruciating. Justice is blind in order to ensure fair, impartial and objective judgement, the Judge in the original case threw those tenets out of the window.

I had tears in my eyes reading about the sexual harassment of girls and the normalisation of porn. I cannot imagine how hard it must be for them on a daily basis in schools. Are we in addition to that going to add “if you don’t change with this penis person in your class who claims that they are a girl then you are bigots?

I completely agree. Its a form of sexual abuse to force girls, or women, to undress in front of someone who they perceive to be male because they have a male body. its a form of social shaming to tell the girl she has to address elsewhere if she is unhappy to do this.