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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think Maya scored a victory for common sense today?

999 replies

DancesWithTortoises · 10/06/2021 11:29

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402922169559044096?s=20

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

The law just cannot be allowed to tell people what to think.

Hurrah for Maya!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
BlueLipstickRocks · 12/06/2021 16:55

Blue, because nowhere is allowed to ask to see evidence of your GRC.

And i profoundly disagree with that.

So you can't retain your (& presumably Yaniv's) believed entitlement to female spaces whilst expecting them to exclude anyone who says they are a transwoman.

Of course I can. A transsexual is not a self identified transgender. Its not an all or nothing. Many many women support post op transsexuals but not self ID.

Women are 51% of the population. There are not too few people to campaign for it.

Youre assuming that 51% of the population share the same view and will support such a position.

BlueLipstickRocks · 12/06/2021 17:03

The other inconvenient truth is that, in practice, organisations & services that act as if 'TWAW' do not differentiate between you & the 'transgender masses' you refer to, Blue, because nowhere is allowed to ask to see evidence of your GRC. & they certainly can't ask you to prove whether you've had surgery.

I have campaigned for many years against such a position. Indeed I have been involved in writing policies to bring exclusions in because an organisation was simply rolling over on everything in favour of anyone declaring themselves as trans.

Ive made my position absolutely clear I hope. The law as it stands was written for transsexuals. The EA is about gender reassignment not gender identity. We need to go back to the intent of the law and change how organisations have chosen to interpret it based on a dose of maniupulation by Stonewall. Stonewall need OUT.

We very much do need some changes but to tighten things up and give more clarity. Ability to publically request a GRC is absolutely necessary - Ive only ever been asked once.

Artichokeleaves · 12/06/2021 17:12

And its a safe bet that any law that comes in will involve compromise and give and take. Likely things I dont agree with, likely things you dont. You dont get to keep trying until you get everything the way you want.

.......

What I 'want' is that women with disabilities, trauma and cultural/faith based issues who cannot access any mixed sex spaces are not excluded from any spaces so that people born male can have their best choice from all the spaces.

I want solutions that work for all including female people.

Compromise cannot involve throwing the inconvenient women to the wolves, and I seriously do expect all women to care about this.

Datun · 12/06/2021 17:15

blue I don't agree that a subset of males should have access, but going with your theme, how do you see access being gate kept? I don't see how ever can be.

You surely can't expect teenage girls, disabled women, vulnerable women, to ask to see some form of ID from a member of the opposite sex?

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 12/06/2021 17:15

@BlueLipstickRocks

Perhaps women should have been consulted before any bikes were handed out at all.

Women were albeit were given numbers of 5k not 600k-1mil. Fact is most women have never met a transsexual. In a UK population there is believed to be 4500 post op transsexuals with a GRC in a population of 60 million. That's 0.0017%.

I’ve just been catching up with earlier parts of the thread and came across this corker from yesterday.

It’s a blatant lie.

Women were most definitely not consulted at the time the GRA was brought in. We weren’t even told about it. The vast, vast majority of women had NO idea at all that these “bikes” were being handed out.

We weren’t considered human enough to consult. The impact on us simply wasn’t even worth any consideration.

That’s the reality of being female. That’s the kind of misogyny that no one born male will ever experience or even have any inkling of - unless they actively choose to try and understand things from women’s perspective.

BlueLipstickRocks · 12/06/2021 17:18

*What I 'want' is that women with disabilities, trauma and cultural/faith based issues who cannot access any mixed sex spaces are not excluded from any spaces so that people born male can have their best choice from all the spaces.

I want solutions that work for all including female people.

Compromise cannot involve throwing the inconvenient women to the wolves, and I seriously do expect all women to care about this.*

I really detest this phrase "people born male". That tells me that you see a post op transsexual no differently to a transvestite. The reality is like it or not my needs are far better served by the facilities offered in a female toilet.

I have of course no issue with solutions that work for ALL people. I have never not been open to dialog with anyone because I beleive its essential in moving forward. My issue is a solution that only works for natal females and the interim position becomes that post op transsexuals immediately move straight to male spaces.

BlueLipstickRocks · 12/06/2021 17:21

*I’ve just been catching up with earlier parts of the thread and came across this corker from yesterday.

It’s a blatant lie.

Women were most definitely not consulted at the time the GRA was brought in. We weren’t even told about it. The vast, vast majority of women had NO idea at all*

No, it isnt a lie. And the fact your understanding differs from mine doesnt make it a lie. Women were consulted. No, it didnt go to some all female refendum to vote on. That is not how democracy works. The elected representatives took a decision that made it into law. That decision involved men and women across different cultural background.

Datun · 12/06/2021 17:22

blue, there are literally hundreds of service providers who have made all their toilets gender neutral. In the blink of an eye. Entire councils. Whole Universities.

They saw it as a fix.

It would take no time at all to convince them to go back to sex segregation, but keep some toilets gender neutral.

Rejoiningperson · 12/06/2021 17:22

I may not agree with many of your positions @BlueLipstickRocks however I do appreciate that some of your more recent posts have obviously been because you have read some of the issues being bought up, listened and recognised problems. I just wanted to say as a woman I appreciate that. Even if we differ.

MarshaBradyo · 12/06/2021 17:23

Who would ask to see proof?

I can’t see how this works in reality

CorvusPurpureus · 12/06/2021 17:24

@Datun

blue I don't agree that a subset of males should have access, but going with your theme, how do you see access being gate kept? I don't see how ever can be.

You surely can't expect teenage girls, disabled women, vulnerable women, to ask to see some form of ID from a member of the opposite sex?

I'm really not vulnerable as things go (I'm big & stroppy), but I had a person who'd certainly had GRS & was showing off the pictures, offer to 'deck your fat transphobic arse' on twitter yesterday. I'd shared a meme about Maya.

Now, they couldn't see a picture of me - not wrong about the fat arse, but it was a lucky guess Grin - but I could see lots of photos of them.

I won't venture a description because it would probably get me deleted, but let's just say even without the threats I wouldn't have felt entirely comfortable saying 'excuse me, ma'am, can I see your GRC certificate?'

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 12/06/2021 17:35

No, it isnt a lie. And the fact your understanding differs from mine doesnt make it a lie. Women were consulted. No, it didnt go to some all female refendum to vote on. That is not how democracy works. The elected representatives took a decision that made it into law. That decision involved men and women across different cultural background.

No. Women as a group, as a cohort, most certainly were not consulted. There were women involved in the parliamentary process as MPs and peers yes - because men did eventually allow women to have some say in the running of the country after all, though of course we’re still vastly underrepresented - but there was no acknowledgement whatsoever that women were stakeholders here, that women as a group would be directly impacted and our views should therefore be taken into account, or even solicited.

There was no consultation process. No attempt to bring this to women’s awareness. We weren’t consulted. We weren’t even informed. Nada.

LongBlobson · 12/06/2021 17:39

I was so pleased to see the news about Maya, and have been following this thread since the start.

@BlueLipstickRocks thank you for sticking with this, it's really interesting to hear your perspective.

I consider myself a gender critical feminist. I really struggle with the trans ideology and the impact on women's rights. At the same time I also feel really bad for people like Blue. I'm not sure what the answer is, from my perspective I would be ok with post-op transsexuals sharing single sex space but I know not everyone is. All this gender ID stuff has made it so much more complicated.

I don't have any answers or particularly any suggestions but it is refreshing to feel like we can discuss these things more openly without anyone shouting bigot, or the thread being deleted.

BlueLipstickRocks · 12/06/2021 17:42

I see we are nearing the 1000 post limit here.

We havent always agreed but I have taken everything on board. I have tried to be respectful and hopefully succeeded.

My PMs are always open to any questions and discussion that anyone wants. Im logging off shortly and I dont do Social Media on a Sunday anyway so I think you all for the (mostly) opportunitity to discuss and debate.

JuneJustRains · 12/06/2021 17:50

I really detest this phrase "people born male".

I’m not surprised. From your posts, you do after all have severe enough dysphoria about your body to have modified as much as you can of its maleness. It must be a hell of a blow to hear that phrase.

But unless you were born male, you aren’t a transwoman — so it’s one of those inconvenient truths like ‘we’re all going to die’ or ‘you aren’t 25 any more’.

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 12/06/2021 18:01

consider myself a gender critical feminist. I really struggle with the trans ideology and the impact on women's rights. At the same time I also feel really bad for people like Blue. I'm not sure what the answer is, from my perspective I would be ok with post-op transsexuals sharing single sex space but I know not everyone is.
When making decisions for groups (women) you keep the most vulnerable in mind. So whilst you don't mind those with trauma and religion do. These are the people you should be considering, otherwise it's not feminism. It's meandmyexperienceism.

Artichokeleaves · 12/06/2021 18:02

I really detest this phrase

I understand and do not do it to be intentionally offensive.

But you have to allow natal female people the ability to describe themselves and their sex based needs. It is a fact that some female people cannot use any space where anyone other than natal female people are present. That this is offensive and upsetting to someone's identity does not solve the need of those natal females.

Those natal females are not less important than anyone else and their needs should not be subordinated.

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 12/06/2021 18:03

Otherwise known as liberal feminism.
Hmm

Artichokeleaves · 12/06/2021 18:03

In all sincerity: what language would you prefer me to use to be able to participate in this conversation?

MissChanandlerBong90 · 12/06/2021 18:06

I consider myself a gender critical feminist. I really struggle with the trans ideology and the impact on women's rights. At the same time I also feel really bad for people like Blue. I'm not sure what the answer is, from my perspective I would be ok with post-op transsexuals sharing single sex space but I know not everyone is. All this gender ID stuff has made it so much more complicated.

Yes, I feel the same. I know I don’t speak for all women but I don’t feel threatened by post-op transsexuals. I am, however, terrified by the prospect of self ID, ‘gender identity’, the eradication of the single sex space exemption, etc. It has been very informative to read @BlueLipstickRocks’ view on that.

BlueLipstickRocks · 12/06/2021 18:13

But unless you were born male, you aren’t a transwoman

I'm not a "transwoman"! Thats a modern invention to apply to transgender. Historically it has always been simply "transsexual" or "transsexual woman".

LongBlobson · 12/06/2021 18:17

These are the people you should be considering, otherwise it's not feminism. It's meandmyexperienceism.

Yes absolutely! That's why I said I don't have a good answer. I have worked with women escaping DV, and with women from many different cultures. I know a fair bit about the issues. I also consider transsexuals to be a separate vulnerable group.

I don't think it's in any way ok to segregate into 'men' and 'women plus anyone male who feels vulnerable to men'. So I'd be on board with something like a third space, or an alternative that that met everyone's needs.

In the meantime those spaces aren't usually available, and I feel for those transsexuals who find themselves lumped in with the whole transgender issue, with the worry that for them, things could get more difficult. As I feel for women who find themselves sharing what should be a safe space with someone they can read as male.

For women, Maya's ruling feels really positive, like the tide is turning, and I am celebrating that.

Erikrie · 12/06/2021 18:19

What do you prefer to be called Blue?

BlueLipstickRocks · 12/06/2021 18:19

What do you prefer to be called Blue?

Transsexual.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 12/06/2021 18:20

There is a really horrifying thread on twitter of videos of biologically male trans people masturbating in public places, primarily in women’s toilets, videos that these trans people themselves have posted online.

At least one of them is “post op” and gleefully posted this video online of themself masturbating with a dildo, not in a cubicle but in the common, open part of the toilets. Presumably the shock that an unsuspecting woman or girl would have had on walking in on this was part of the frisson for this individual. Just as posting their exploits on the internet is part of the thrill.

This is not female pattern behaviour.

There are multiple convicted male sex offenders currently housed in women’s prisons in Canada. At least one of them is fully “post op”. He continues to harass and assault women (with impunity, furthermore) even now his penis has been inverted to create a neo-vagina.

There may be similar males in the UK prison system, though of course the details are all kept as obscure as possible.

I imagine that the great majority of “post op transsexuals” do not fall into this category. I don’t for a moment ascribe that horrific behaviour to someone like you, Blue, of course. But it does show that the mere fact of being “post op” is no guarantee of anything.

The mind of a rapist stays the same whether he keeps his penis or not. Women are still not safe with him. He is still a threat to women’s well being.

And as so many have said already, even an utterly harmless transsexual person may cause distress to women and girls simply by virtue of being still recognisably male - and there is just no way to police who is harmless and who isn’t.

So the only thing that will give women and girls what we need is across the board exclusion of all males, however they identify, present, or modify their appearance.

But of course first you have to be interested in giving women and girls what we need. Not a priority for society now, or indeed ever.

But hey! We got that ruling and I’m bloody well still chuffed about it.