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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think Maya scored a victory for common sense today?

999 replies

DancesWithTortoises · 10/06/2021 11:29

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402922169559044096?s=20

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

The law just cannot be allowed to tell people what to think.

Hurrah for Maya!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
TheWordWomanIsTaken · 12/06/2021 18:20

LongBlobson
How would you know who is post op?

Erikrie · 12/06/2021 18:21

Transsexual

Ok.

MarshaBradyo · 12/06/2021 18:24

Those natal females are not less important than anyone else and their needs should not be subordinated.

I agree with this

Also, Blue when you say you would prefer proof option who do you envisage asking for it?

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 12/06/2021 18:30

I know a fair bit about the issues. I also consider transsexuals to be a separate vulnerable group.

When I think about vulnerable groups I like to think of the most vulnerable people I have met and how it impacts them.

A Muslim women may, for example, experience discomfort on her own behalf, but then she will also face consequences from males in her community if found in a state of undress with a person her religion and community feels is male.

And whilst I have sympathy, I do not see anyone but women actually working towards suitable solutions. As I said previously, if stonewall hadn't pissed all their money away persecuting women we'd have third spaces by now.
Hell, they had so much money we'd have bidets by now!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2021 18:49

No. Women as a group, as a cohort, most certainly were not consulted. There were women involved in the parliamentary process as MPs and peers yes - because men did eventually allow women to have some say in the running of the country after all, though of course we’re still vastly underrepresented - but there was no acknowledgement whatsoever that women were stakeholders here, that women as a group would be directly impacted and our views should therefore be taken into account, or even solicited.

There was no consultation process. No attempt to bring this to women’s awareness. We weren’t consulted. We weren’t even informed. Nada.

This. We were not consulted and we were not considered. Please don't misrepresent what happened.

BlueLipstickRocks · 12/06/2021 18:50

And whilst I have sympathy, I do not see anyone but women actually working towards suitable solutions.

Thats profoundly unfair. Transsexuals have been involved for years supporting women against self ID. There are quite a few transsexual allies who speak out at personal risk to support women.

Unfortunately transsexuals are outnumbered probably 100:1 by the modern transgender identities.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2021 18:50

That is not how democracy works.

It's generally necessary to consult the public when you want to make such a wide ranging change in the law.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2021 18:52

Do not tell us, Blue, that women consented in full freedom to do so. We did not.

BlueLipstickRocks · 12/06/2021 18:54

*That is not how democracy works.

It's generally necessary to consult the public when you want to make such a wide ranging change in the law.*

Thats the think though, it wasnt supposed to be wide ranging. Some 17 years ago the number given for GRCs was 5,000 people. That has proved entirely correct. The Gov knew exactly how many transsexuals there were.
It only became wide reaching with transgenderism and the manipulation and lies of Stonewall.

Being asked to share a space with 5000 post op transsexuals is one thing - being asked to share a space with 600k to 1mil of people that is simply anyone who wants is quite another!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2021 18:55

Of course I can. A transsexual is not a self identified transgender. Its not an all or nothing. Many many women support post op transsexuals but not self ID.

As we have discussed on another thread there are also many many women who don't wish to share toilets with any males at all.

BlueLipstickRocks · 12/06/2021 18:55

Do not tell us, Blue, that women consented in full freedom to do so. We did not.

Do not tell me that women did not. The reality is a mix of views not one single position.

BlueLipstickRocks · 12/06/2021 18:58

As we have discussed on another thread there are also many many women who don't wish to share toilets with any males at all.

And many many who are quite happy to include transsexuals. There will never be a consensus - there never is on anything. I doubt society could even agree the sky was blue as a collective!

I accept that some hold that position. Just i accept there are some who oppose womens rights etc.. but it doesnt mean always accomodating such positions without compromise.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2021 19:01

Do not tell me that women did not.

I will tell you this, because we weren't actually asked for our consent, because it wasn't considered relevant in any way! You cannot presume women's consent.

I'd like you to engage with what I am saying, and acknowledge that there is a conflict for women and girls.

Lonel · 12/06/2021 19:03

There was no informed consent.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2021 19:04

I accept that some hold that position.

Probably hundreds of thousands, even millions. I'm not engaging with the gotcha you're trying to do about men who don't agree women have rights, because all that is relevant here is that you aren't listening to the women who disagree with you on why you feel you should have access to female only spaces.

BlueLipstickRocks · 12/06/2021 19:04

I'd like you to engage with what I am saying, and acknowledge that there is a conflict for women and girls

I have already said I acknowledge that for some there is an issue. Its certainly not all.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2021 19:05

Its certainly not all.

So. It's many many women. It's not about whether it's "all".

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2021 19:06

And whilst I have sympathy, I do not see anyone but women actually working towards suitable solutions. As I said previously, if stonewall hadn't pissed all their money away persecuting women we'd have third spaces by now.
Hell, they had so much money we'd have bidets by now!

I agree. If women were at all considered in this, third spaces would have been the ONLY option possible, ever.

BlueLipstickRocks · 12/06/2021 19:10

So. It's many many women. It's not about whether it's "all".

And many more don't have an issue. The majority objected to self ID but supported post op.

You are asking me to relinquish my tights to the minority at expense to my own needs.

As I've said before in daily life it is very very rare I ever see an issue. All I see is support and encouragement. Commonly I ended up in discussions explaining why I don't think they should support self ID.

LongBlobson · 12/06/2021 19:10

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

When I think about vulnerable groups I like to think of the most vulnerable people I have met and how it impacts them.

That's a fair point. I'm in no way trying to disagree with this. I feel pretty strongly that there should be single sex spaces available for women.

And I get that it shouldn't be women's problem to solve, but I do care about vulnerable transsexual people too. Many years ago when I worked at a DV hostel, we did have a transsexual woman staying. In that case they were extremely vulnerable in multiple ways and the decision to accept the referral was made after a lot of discussion and risk assessment including consideration of the other women in that house. It wasn't a case of men's needs trumping women. Everyone's needs were met appropriately. But that kind of thing was very, very rare. It needs to be handled so sensitively, and on a case by case basis. Which isn't really possible in most situations.

And no I wouldn't know who was post-op or not if they were in the women's toilets with me.

I feel quite comfortable to say I am a feminist and want single sex female spaces and also acknowledge that as things stand, some individual transsexuals would be put in an extremely vulnerable position if they had to use men's toilets/changing rooms etc. Yes that is a problem caused by men. We can still consider their needs as part of the whole discussion, I'd rather find a way forward that keeps everyone safe from harm.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2021 19:14

Furthermore, lots of women would be happy to let any male into women's single sex spaces because they subscribe to the belief TWAW, and there is no gatekeeping at all allowed with that position. I do not. I do not consent. To any males. Not personal. Not a value judgement. All gender identities. My DP, my DB. No male people, however lovely or otherwise. My boundaries.

Datun · 12/06/2021 19:14

blue I can easily recognise the distinction between transsexuals, and transwomen. And I totally understand your frustration.

But the point is, if I had agreed way back when, it would be on the basis of numbers. And I'm now of the opinion, that that's not fair. Why should male born individuals be catered to at the expense of women?

For each male, there could be one or more females who are affected.

That's not right, it's not fair, it's not equality.

Whatwouldscullydo · 12/06/2021 19:16

But many trans people use the correct facilities for their sex with no issues.

No one at can tell who's gone the whole hog or got a grc anyway so there's no way of stopping the "right" ones.

I actually think.jt should be made clear by the therapists and the drs from.the.beginning what the boundaries are then maybe there wouldn't be this problem.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2021 19:16

For each male, there could be one or more females who are affected.

That's not right, it's not fair, it's not equality.

Exactly.

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