AIBU to think Maya scored a victory for common sense today?

[DancesWithTortoises]

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402922169559044096?s=20

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

The law just cannot be allowed to tell people what to think.

Hurrah for Maya!

3.5 billion female humans on the planet. The only thing they all have in common is biology. Gender stereotypes aren't the same across the world or across time. Biology is. Incredible this should need to be stated.

What makes you think trans men/women don't want peace and love for women?

Err this might have something to do with it.

terfisaslur.com/

Labelling feminist groups as hate groups, coordinated attempts to get people banned from social media etc etc.

THE FACT A WOMAN NEEDED A LEGAL JUDGEMENT TO MAKE IT OK FOR US TO TALK ABOUT THE BINARY NATURE OF BIOLOGICAL SEX WITHOUT BEING ACCUSED OF BEING HATEFUL.

My friend is trans and knows that they are trans. They are proud of this. They know that sex can't change. Are they transphobic too?

I think woman is a sex class and it is coded into every fibre of my being at a molecular level. It is not a feeling or a costume or a role. It's immutable fact. Woman is born, not made.

A transwoman is biologically male and this is coded into their DNA.

If my trans friend and I both present at a hospital with gynaecological irregularities, do we need the same treatment? Do I need checking for prostate cancer? Do they need ovarian cancer ruling out? Are we the same? No. Do we have the same needs? No. Do we have the same rights? Yes.

Lady Fidget

You are entitled to believe TWAW. You have a right not to be discriminated against for holding that belief save where the exceptions in the Equality Act apply in relation to single sex spaces.

Others are equally entitled to believe that TWANW. Holding that belief is not transphobic. Not agreeing with someone is not the same as hating them or wishing them harm. DH and I have different religious beliefs that doesn’t make me phobic about his religion.

YANBU. It is a strange state of affairs when biological reality and campaigning to safeguard women's sex based rights can be considered an unacceptable belief and I'm glad that has been rectified.

Does anyone know if Maya has been able to resume her career?

She has been courageous in pursuing this through the court, but has that now rendered her unemployable, given that she is now a household name?

It would be an absolute travesty if after all this, she cannot earn her living in her chosen profession. Yes, I know people are protected under the Equality Act, but if employers won't touch people like Maya with a 10ft barge pole (they have their ways to fudge their processes), it will deter other women from being prepared to speak up for all sorts of misdemeanours we are assaulted with on an hourly basis.

@Bunshaped

But trans women aren't acting at being women they are women.

Well, what are they transing from and to then?
If they're part of the same group already, why the need for the "trans" descriptor?
Does that mean we can drop the T from LGBT now?

Quite!

Transwomen are not women they are transwomen.

Can you explain to me why saying "trans women aren't women" isn't transphobic?

Because a phobia is an irrational fear or hatred of something or someone.

Knowing that a woman is an adult human female and that a transwoman is not female, is not irrational or hatred, any more than saying "I don't believe in God."

Saying "I don't believe in God" doesn't mean I have a phobia about religious people who do believe in God. I support religious freedom and the right to worship any God of your choosing. I don't believe in your God though, but that doesn't mean I'm a religiophobe.

You know that female people cannot be transwomen don't you? I as a woman, can't identify as a transwoman, can I? Why not? Because I'm not male. Saying that is not phobic.

Well done Maya.

it's sad and scary that it ever came to this.

Witch hunting has been alive and kicking in recent years, demonising, cancelling, getting women sacked, death threats, rape threats, kicking teeth in threats, getting punched at speakers corner, blocked from entering meeting, hounded down streets after meetings, banging on windows at meetings, court cases, threatened court cases, police been called on them, being arrested, and generally ruining women lives.

for what?

Because a class of people (who happen to be women) want to get together and talk about things that affect them because of their sex? because to meet and talk about their sex, they have to distinguish that sex is a reality

Sex matters. It is not transphobic to recognise the fundamental differences between a woman and a trans women.

Trans women are trans women and should be proud of their transition. I will always support anyone to be who they want to be.

If woman is a gender identity, it needs a description, or a means of identifying it. Which, to my mind, has never been forthcoming.

Indeed. There must be a definition which describes it in a way that makes it unmistakeable.

But to TRAs it comes down to "feelings". "I feel therefore I am" if you will.

But what does it feel like to be a woman? I am a woman, and I don't know - I just know what it feels like to be me - I have no idea if other women feel the same about their gender identity.

What are the characteristics on "woman-ness"? And why should biological females(a huge group of people, gay, straight and bi-) be forced to place themselves at physical, sexual and economic disadvantage to save the hurt feelings of a few biological males - males who possess all of the human rights which apply to all people, but who now want to appropriate areas which enable women to be safe, and to maintain dignity?

@LadyFidgetAndHerHandbag

Your link doesn’t say that trans women are women. It says that transgender people are those whose gender identity doesn’t match the sex they were ‘assigned’ at birth.

It also says ‘most bring their bodies into alignment with their gender identity. This is called transition’.

Can you explain how saying trans women aren’t women IS transphobic? Isn’t it transphobic to say trans women are women, thus denying their trans status?

Trans women are trans women. Women are women. Adult human females. Those of the sex with large immobile gametes and the ability to gestate young.

If gender critical is a protected belief, is it now ok to state on MN that I believe trans women are trans women, sex can’t be changed and woman = adult human female?

This is great news.
I'm also genuinely interested to know what people actually mean by TWAW. Surely the basic premise of that is that ONLY males can be TW. There is always a difference, and that difference is rooted in biology. I'm a biological woman and was born that way, and therefore could never become a trans woman.

But trans women aren't acting at being women they are women.

That's your belief and luckily for you you also cannot be discriminated against, harassed or victimised simply for expressing it. That's the beauty of free expression in a democratic society.

I'm so relieved and yet simultaneously disgusted that such a matter ever arose and needed to be clarified in Court.

Thank you Maya

We are not raped because of our feelings.

We are not paid less because of an internal identity.

FGM doesn't happen because we think female thoughts.

Forced marriage doesn't occur because of assignation of gender at birth.

My 14yr old daughter is not groped at school because she identifies with a gender role.

Our oppression is because of our bodies and so must be our protections.

I am so happy for Maya and incredibly grateful she was so brave throughout her ordeal. Common sense at last!

Transwomen are transwomen. We have the right to believe that and it isn't transphobic to say so. Trans right are independent from women's rights and the former has no right to trample over the latter.

Thank you so much Maya.

Goddammit took me so long to reply!

Not only is it worthy of respect, but it is also one that is consistent with the common law under which sex is regarded as binary and fixed at birth for the purposes of all legal provisions which make a distinction between men and women.

An excellent statement from the Judgement.

That it should ever have come to this is appalling and not the fault of women.

@Pumperthepumper

I think it’s a great result and will probably be referenced quite a lot in future cases of say, people not wanting to use cis at work or put pronouns in email signatures. I’m glad she was successful, although I don’t agree with tweeting things you know will cause offence.

But so many things could cause offence to somebody, my religious beliefs would be offensive to some, should I never mention them online? Same with my sexuality.

@SunnyintheSun

If gender critical is a protected belief, is it now ok to state on MN that I believe trans women are trans women, sex can’t be changed and woman = adult human female?

The judgment doesn’t really say anything about the expression/manifestation of the belief. The fact a belief is protected doesn’t mean you can express it however and whenever you like

I’m not saying you shouldn’t be able to say those things! Just that the judgment doesn’t really deal with that aspect. That will come in the next stage of the litigation, and will be more fact specific to Maya’s case. The belief being protected is of more general application.

Great news. Congratulations Maya

Material reality isn't hate speech. Material reality is worthy of respect. It shouldn't have ever got to the point that it took a court case to unravel this farce. A great big thank you to Maya.

@AllDoneIn

Imagine that a woman needed the law to intervene to protect her for saying that A PERSON CANNOT CHANGE THEIR BIOLOGICAL SEX. Really think about that. A woman lost her job for stating BIOLOGICAL REALITY.

Exactly!! She lost her job for stating sex is real. Crazy.

So happy and relieved. Thank you Maya. You have protected so many women with this win.