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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think Maya scored a victory for common sense today?

999 replies

DancesWithTortoises · 10/06/2021 11:29

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402922169559044096?s=20

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

The law just cannot be allowed to tell people what to think.

Hurrah for Maya!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Datun · 11/06/2021 18:46

@BlueLipstickRocks

GC women aren’t saying that. They are saying: you were born male, and if you don’t feel safe in male spaces then that is a problem for males to solve. It isn’t a problem for females to solve.

Its been solved for now. Its not a perfect solution but the law says I, and other TS people like myself are legally female.
What you're saying is you want that solution removed and for men to find another solution.
And in the meantime I should now only use male spaces because the fact I was born male means I am not entitled to any protection or recognition of my needs.

blue feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but is this just about toilets for you?
YNK · 11/06/2021 18:48

@BlueLipstickRocks

GC women aren’t saying that. They are saying: you were born male, and if you don’t feel safe in male spaces then that is a problem for males to solve. It isn’t a problem for females to solve.

Its been solved for now. Its not a perfect solution but the law says I, and other TS people like myself are legally female.
What you're saying is you want that solution removed and for men to find another solution.
And in the meantime I should now only use male spaces because the fact I was born male means I am not entitled to any protection or recognition of my needs.

These are not solutions that women should have to find (we know our place)

Only one stick used to beat women has been removed but plenty are still available.
Women have not harmed you, the playing field has been temporarily levelled - it will soon tilt again.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/06/2021 18:50

So female people, suck it up and those who are excluded, oh well.

No.

Not an acceptable solution. It is not female people's job to suck up this disadvantage alone. I'm never going to accept that it is.

I find the combination of expecting women to put up and shut up because it was all resolved years ago without consulting us, and also berating us for wanting to assert ourselves now to campaign for female only spaces interesting. It's not the first time I've seen it.

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 11/06/2021 18:56

If stonewall aren't up to it then mother group with proper aims, such as planning third spaces and additional Medical literature etc. needs to be formed.

The current situation can't continue indefinitely as it's not ideal for anybody so action needs to be taken that's not simply expecting women to shove over.

Disabled people managed it with a lot less money and public support than this would likely garner.

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 11/06/2021 18:57

Another group not mother group.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 11/06/2021 18:58

The "safety" argument for allowing males into women's spaces makes me crazy.

My gay friend is very camp/effeminate (hate those descriptors but basically every homophobic bastard in a ten mile radius can spot him) & has been badly beaten up in men's toilets- NO ONE suggested that he should use the women's toilets everyone suggested that the homophobic bastards were the problem.

Surely if transwomen are at risk in male spaces the problem is (actually) transphobic men? Happily I understand that transwomen are actually very safe in the uk.

BlueLipstickRocks · 11/06/2021 19:18

Not an acceptable solution. It is not female people's job to suck up this disadvantage alone. I'm never going to accept that it is.

The solution is already established in law. By all means campaign for it to be revoked but in the interim you don't get to ignore a law because you don't like it.

Artichokeleaves · 11/06/2021 19:20

@BlueLipstickRocks

Not an acceptable solution. It is not female people's job to suck up this disadvantage alone. I'm never going to accept that it is.

The solution is already established in law. By all means campaign for it to be revoked but in the interim you don't get to ignore a law because you don't like it.

I'm stating a view. What law am I breaking by ignoring?

My view is that this is not a solution, it's bad law, and it needs to be changed to something that works for all people. That is not actually a crime.

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 11/06/2021 19:25

I mean there are likely hundreds of people on Mumsnet alone which would give to a cause where third spaces were clearly the aim.
So I do have to wonder why this resource isn't being tapped.

BlueLipstickRocks · 11/06/2021 19:26

blue feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but is this just about toilets for you?

Not at all. These are complex and wide reaching issues that extend into all aspects of daily life.

I entirely accept there are times when the Law allows exceptions. I fully support the need to exclude all those who gained the physical benefits of male puberty from being excluded from sex based sports.

Yesterday's ruling allows people to hold gender critical beliefs. The ruling was not about endorsing the legitimacy of such beliefs. Nor did it grant the freedom to disregard the GRA.

I'm not asking for anything above what the law already permits. In fact I'm believe some things needs to be removed and restricted farther.

WoolOfBat · 11/06/2021 19:27

Blue, I am so sorry, this must be awful for you. I do understand that your world must feel so uncertain right now.

I am one of the women who always thought that toilets were fine to share with trans women who were post-op. No problem. I do not want to give consent for others though.

What I have found horrific in this debate is the amount of people with a fetish who are trying to crawl under the trans umbrella. Jessica Yaniv (suing women for not wanting to touch their balls and fantasising about helping girls with their tampons), the person tweeting a picture in a gimp suit from the toilets at NSPCC, the transwomen tweeting and laughing about how women didn’t sit down on the toilet and what sound their wee made, the sexual assault of a young girl by a trans woman in the pubic toilet, Karen White, the list goes on and on and on.

I understand that there is a group of trans women who are post op, dysphoric and just want to live their lives and I feel deeply for them. But I have no idea how to tell them apart from the absolute creeps who are trying to use some made up trans identity to get access to women’s spaces.

As a woman, I have to prioritise women and girls above born males. I am sorry but we need a period where only natal females are allowed in female spaces to find out how to tell transwomen apart from people pretending to be trans.

BlueLipstickRocks · 11/06/2021 19:32

As a woman, I have to prioritise women and girls above born males. I am sorry but we need a period where only natal females are allowed in female spaces to find out how to tell transwomen apart from people pretending to be trans.

In such a situation how do you differentiate transmen from natal men claiming a trans identity?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/06/2021 19:33

The solution is already established in law.

You see it as a solution. Others don't. This isn't about you as an individual. It's not a value judgement, it's women's boundaries and consent being overridden.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/06/2021 19:36

Nor did it grant the freedom to disregard the GRA.

There are provisions to do that within existing equality law. We always have the "freedom" to campaign for laws to be changed when they don't work for marginalised sections of society. The solution is mandating third spaces.

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 11/06/2021 19:36

In the nicest way possible, I think transmen passing to that extent is very rare. I can tell men and women apart in the dark by their movements.
If it were genuinely a problem then, yes, that's creating yet another problem for women when assessing safety.
Not a problem we created though. Is it for us to solve?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/06/2021 19:38

Again, women are being held to a higher standard here. You must ensure everyone else is provided for before you can campaign for your own rights. No.

BlueLipstickRocks · 11/06/2021 19:38

You see it as a solution. Others don't. This isn't about you as an individual. It's not a value judgement, it's women's boundaries and consent being overridden.

I don't see it as a solution but neither do I see deciding that post op transsexuals with GRC should be treated no differently to any other person born male even though such person likely lives and works in a female gender role. There needs to be other solutions found.

Fixing the overriding of consent and boundaries by Stonewall doesn't mean denying the legal protections afforded to transsexuals.

DifficultBloodyWoman · 11/06/2021 19:39

@BlueLipstickRocks

Not an acceptable solution. It is not female people's job to suck up this disadvantage alone. I'm never going to accept that it is.

The solution is already established in law. By all means campaign for it to be revoked but in the interim you don't get to ignore a law because you don't like it.

My first reaction was to laugh and think ‘tell that to Stonewall’.

The single sex exemption exists (in law!). It needs to be applied in places it has previously been ignored.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 11/06/2021 19:42

BlueLipstickRocks what I would like to see from you, rather than this endless stream of demands that women fix this problem for you, is some empathy and respect for women. An acknowledgment that you have mistreated us by appropriating our spaces without our consent.

That you have behaved in a very similar way to a great number of other biologically male people, throughout history: that is, treating us as if we are a commodity that exists to validate you, make your life better/easier, instead of human beings in our own right; with no thought of the impact of your actions on us, the consequences for us.

You say this problem is for us to solve. Why? You don’t think we have enough problems of our own to solve already? Are you really so unaware of the burden we already carry as female people in a world historically and currently predisposed to hugely disadvantage us?

Life takes such a toll on so many of us already. It has been documented that cultural traumas, such as the Holocaust or the Transatlantic slave trade, make their mark on the groups affected going down through generations after the specific trauma itself has ended. The children, grandchildren and who knows how many times great-grandchildren can carry within them the legacy of the horror that was inflicted on their forebears, even though they never lived through it themselves.

Of course the oppression and subjugation of women can never be directly compared to that of an ethnic group or race because of the very different dynamics between oppressor and oppressed in the differing cases: women's position is unique in that for most of us, our intimate lives are in some way bound up with at least some of those from the class who oppress us, whether those men are fathers, brothers, husbands or sons.

But I suspect there is a similar phenomenon.

How can we not be affected, growing up knowing how many of our sex have been hideously abused by those of the opposite sex? Knowing that throughout history we have been lesser, our inferior status frequently codified into law? Women’s bodies bought and sold, exploited and abused, women's voices silenced, women’s pain ignored, women’s labour demanded and rarely justly recompensed?

What does it do to our psyche, to know these things about the world we live in? To know that it still goes on, here and further afield, in myriad different ways? Because this trauma is a long way from over.

We’ll never know really, because it’s impossible to do a controlled experiment and find out how different life would be for women brought up in a world where male oppression of females had never existed. That world won’t ever exist; the best we can hope for is a world where male oppression of females no longer exists, and that’s not going to happen unless we bring it into being.

And what I’m asking you to do is play your part in bringing that world into being. Acknowledge that you as a biologically male person have benefited from female oppression in ways you’ve probably never thought about - but you still have. Our lower status was what made it possible for someone like to you to access our spaces in the first place. If we had more power in society, you wouldn’t have presumed to breach our boundaries in that way.

Our lower status is what makes it very hard for someone like you to be acknowledged as a man: an effeminate man who identifies with the role societally expected of a woman is seen as lesser because women are seen as lesser. There has never been the same contempt for “tomboys” as there has for “sissies” because girls are not lessening themselves by “acting like” boys, because girls are already lesser.

If there were no disparity in status between males and females, there would be no shame in being an effeminate man, it would not attract contempt and there would be nothing to escape from. Being transsexual is predicated upon the continued lesser status of women and superior status of men. That harms us.

I understand that you’re between a rock and a hard place in that respect because those values are still embedded in our culture.

But so are we.

And your use of us to alleviate your hardship makes our hardship yet harder.

What I would like from you is some recognition that women have suffered, suffer enough. That women have the right to boundaries. That women have the right to respect. That even if it can’t be policed when a biologically male trans person truly passes (which is rare, I’m sure you’ll agree), the decent thing for a male person in that position to do would be to not impose on women.

That the decent thing for all biologically male trans people to do would be to find a solution to their problem that doesn’t take away anything from women. Because the minute you claim entry to our spaces, you are taking something away from us. You’re taking away our single sex spaces and services, and you’re also taking away our right of consent. Just streamrollering right over it.

You want to draw a distinction between you and the aggressive proponents of self ID, the holders up of the trans umbrella.

But it was “genuine transsexuals” who started all this. “Genuine transsexuals” such as Christine Burns and Stephen Whittle who campaigned and lobbied for the GRA, who went on a deliberate mission to try and bring about far-reaching social and legislative changes by stealth, unbeknownst to the vast majority of the population.

Who quite intentionally chose a name for their lobby group that had no reference in it at all to the fact it was on behalf of transsexual people - “Press for Change” - so that it wouldn’t be immediately clear what their purpose was.

The fact is there is no way to distinguish between “genuine transsexuals” and all the others under the umbrella. We cannot compel people to have surgery. We cannot have a panel adjudicating on whether someone “passes” or not. We cannot include some male people in the category of “woman” and exclude others who also wish to be in that category.

The only way forward that I see is a campaign to encourage all male people to see women as full human beings. That would ultimately benefit effeminate male people too, if the status of “feminine” was on a par with that of “masculine”. You could be part of that. You could acknowledge that it is male privilege that has made you feel entitled to extract mental/emotional labour from women, and override our boundaries, just as male privilege (and the power of brute force) has made men feel entitled to extract all kinds of labour from women and override our boundaries in all kinds of ways since forever.

An example of you extracting mental/emotional labour from women, btw, is your behaviour on this thread: insisting this is women's problem to solve. Also expecting us to accommodate you in single sex spaces, regardless of the impact on us. And of course there’s the boundary overriding.

I don’t consent to you being in women’s single sex spaces. I know I am out of step with some aspects of current law there, but it is my truth. I was never asked. I never gave my consent. If I was asked now, I would say no. If I had known about the GRA at the time, I would have protested against it, and I suspect a lot of other women would have done so too.

I recognise that there is no easy answer to where this leaves you but I do not accept that it is up to me to find the solution. You took something from me without asking in the first place: it’s not up to me to find an adequate replacement for you now I’m asking you to give it back.

So. There you are. Do you want to try and be part of a better world, where male people observe the boundaries and acknowledge the lived experiences of female people, and show us the respect we deserve, even when they could get away with not doing so? I wonder.

It would be really refreshing if you did.

BlueLipstickRocks · 11/06/2021 19:43

Not a problem we created though. Is it for us to solve?

Its not a problem I created either. Why is it on me to solve ?

You must ensure everyone else is provided for before you can campaign for your own rights

I already have my own rights. Transgender people do not. I as a transsexual have no desire to pursue rights for transgender people. What you're actually asking is that I campaign for transgender rights, that I surrender my existing rights and include myself alongside those for who trans is an identity.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 11/06/2021 19:49

It took me such a long time to write the above post that I wondered if the thread would have moved on completely in the meantime.

I see that it hasn’t.

BlueLipstickRocks · 11/06/2021 19:50

That you have behaved in a very similar way to a great number of other biologically male people, throughout history: that is, treating us as if we are a commodity that exists to validate you,

I have done no such thing. Please do not look to make me take responsibility simply by virtue of my natal sex.

You took something from me without asking in the first place: it’s not up to me to find an adequate replacement for you now I’m asking you to give it back.

You are free to seek changes in law but right now you are asking me to voluntarily give up my legal rights. You want me to find a replacement when a law already exists because you don't agree with it

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/06/2021 19:52

You are free to seek changes in law

Yes.

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 11/06/2021 19:53

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark I thought it raised some very good points and it does encapsulate how many women feel about this.
We weren't asked or consulted and half this only went through on the back of male privilege.

BlueLipstickRocks · 11/06/2021 19:54

Do you want to try and be part of a better world, where male people observe the boundaries and acknowledge the lived experiences of female people, and show us the respect we deserve, even when they could get away with not doing so?

I don't want to be a part of such a world.

I want to be a part of a world where biological sex is no longer tied to gender roles and stereotypes. Where there us no need for boundaries because opportunities are open to all. I want to be part of a world where noone us discriminated against and everyone us truly equal.

I want to see a time where mutual respect removes a need for boundaries.