AIBU to think Maya scored a victory for common sense today?

[DancesWithTortoises]

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402922169559044096?s=20

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

The law just cannot be allowed to tell people what to think.

Hurrah for Maya!

There are female people who cannot use some spaces where they are vulnerable, where privacy and dignity is involved, with someone who is male, regardless of their degree of transition or possession of a GRC.

There are some times and spaces where we must be able to say that transwomen and female people are two different groups for some situations and purposes, and to refuse female people this means failing those female people whose only choice is then to give up access to those services.

Again I would point out: it is male people who would really like female people's boundaries and sex based needs to be placed second here, and would rather that some female people just can't have access and are excluded than there is an agreed time and place for separate provision.

You say that as though we don't know that transexuals have been accommodated. We are the ones that did the accommodating, with no laws to tell us, just our female socialisation.

Many times wee looked, we saw and we experienced a frisson if fear, anxiety and then felt ashamed. We were socialised to believe that transwomen felt more fear than we did (a bit like spiders) and we were obligated to be nice, to set aside our gut reaction and not to speak out.

For decades that was the case. And that is why now many women are saying 'this is a problem for men' TRAs, Stonewall etc pushed hard and transwomen like you, and a long standing friend of mine, in case you were thinking I have no experience if transpeople, now have to get their heads round the exact same problem women have had for the last few years.

As someone else said, it feels a bit like retrieving my bicycle from the person who stole it and then complaining that they no longer have any transport to get to work on.

I would have thought from a practical point of view a post op transexual using the men's would be far easier.

Why? The same concerns over safety exist with post op TS.

As someone else said, it feels a bit like retrieving my bicycle from the person who stole it and then complaining that they no longer have any transport to get to work on.

To me I see it as "Mr Stonewall and his friends stole my bike so that means it's OK for me to steal yours. If you need a bike go steal one from Mr Stonewall yourself". Dont forget the law says I'm allowed a bike and it can't be taken off me!

Why should I be personally responsible for Stonewall?

The issue is not with women taking back women's rights, its this desire that some have to see transsexual rights taken away. There's a difference between stopping self id & defending womens rights and looking to take away already established legal rights.

Artichoke as I have posted a few times, ad nauseam I suspect, I work/ volunteer for a group of community charities. They include 2 DV refuges. Both have separate rooms and communal areas.

One is resolutely run by and accessible by females only (and their kids). The other will accept transwomen after a house meeting. To my knowledge there are 2 transwomen there at the moment. It is also the space we would expect transmen to use, though the women in the other house would be asked, if requested.

We have never had any issue but remain vigilant and it may only take one loud voice to have finding streams reviewed, removed.

In both houses the voices of women are paramount. No man, trans or otherwise, has a vote. There are 2 houses because one has a wider remit than the other and we found different funding streams for them both.

It can work. But in my direct experience only if women have the casting vote.

Ok, what are you going to do with the female people who cannot use mixed sex spaces? Because regardless of legal documentation, they perceive that someone male is present and that means they have to leave?

Female people are not saying this stuff for fun. Trust me, there's no fun in this whatsobloodyever.

Blue as has been said before, your bike can be removed if the circumstances allow. It is on loan, so to speak.

Much as that may be distasteful it is the law,.the guidance notes to the EA2010 are quite specific.

Blue as has been said before, your bike can be removed if the circumstances allow. It is on loan, so to speak.

I am well aware of that. That doesn't mean as some are arguing that I should now be banned from having a bike ever again!

I have had numerous conversations with women over the years and it seems to come down in a lot of situations to the right to say no. I have never been disrespectful in any way and have always been welcomed and invited.

People are free to say transwomen are not women. You can say that TW are biologically men. However I reject anyone who tells me that my natal sex means I must be viewed no different to any other men and my post op status and GRC status is entirely irrelevant.

Perhaps women should have been consulted before any bikes were handed out at all.

Ok, what are you going to do with the female people who cannot use mixed sex spaces?

This is where dialog starts.

I could say what do you do with old school transsexuals who are fully transitioned living in a female gender role who also cannot use certain spaces because of safety issues. The solution of "but we don't care they're all just men" doesn't solve the problem.

Perhaps women should have been consulted before any bikes were handed out at all.

Women were albeit were given numbers of 5k not 600k-1mil. Fact is most women have never met a transsexual. In a UK population there is believed to be 4500 post op transsexuals with a GRC in a population of 60 million. That's 0.0017%.

@BlueLipstickRocks

Ok, what are you going to do with the female people who cannot use mixed sex spaces?

This is where dialog starts.

I could say what do you do with old school transsexuals who are fully transitioned living in a female gender role who also cannot use certain spaces because of safety issues. The solution of "but we don't care they're all just men" doesn't solve the problem.

But is a valid reaction to all ten Stonewalling.

That is the current starting point, partly because of those you complain of ,who probably didn't feel that way even 3 years ago!

@BlueLipstickRocks

Perhaps women should have been consulted before any bikes were handed out at all.

Women were albeit were given numbers of 5k not 600k-1mil. Fact is most women have never met a transsexual. In a UK population there is believed to be 4500 post op transsexuals with a GRC in a population of 60 million. That's 0.0017%.

But we all seem to have met the TRA kind! Online, in real life, allies or otherwise.

And there lies the rub...

@BlueLipstickRocks

Ok, what are you going to do with the female people who cannot use mixed sex spaces?

This is where dialog starts.

I could say what do you do with old school transsexuals who are fully transitioned living in a female gender role who also cannot use certain spaces because of safety issues. The solution of "but we don't care they're all just men" doesn't solve the problem.

As women know from bitter experience, it is now impossible to gatekeep women's spaces. If they available to some TW they are available to all; largely because of the total lack of respect for female people's needs. That genie is now out of the bottle and gone, and female people weren't even asked about the genie in the first place. Their spaces were just appropriated. They weren't even seen as important enough to consider.

Both groups needs can be met by providing third, gender neutral, mixed sex spaces in addition to single sex provisions. This however will have to involve recognising that some natal female people have sex based needs for which they need to be able to separate themselves in words, spaces and resources from any other class group.

Both groups needs can be met by providing third, gender neutral, mixed sex spaces in addition to single sex provisions. This however will have to involve recognising that some natal female people have sex based needs for which they need to be able to separate themselves in words, spaces and resources from any other class group.

And in the interim and the absence of third spaces should there be any recognition of the specific needs of those who have had reassignment surgery and also at times need to separate themselves?

As women know from bitter experience, it is now impossible to gatekeep women's spaces. If they available to some TW they are available to all; largely because of the total lack of respect for female people's needs.

How do you fully gatekeep when transmen are using womens spaces? A biological sex based space that pushes out transsexual women also brings in transmen.

@TooYoungToNotice thank you for your lovely comment earlier. And thank you for delurking to post. The common accusation that FWR is an echo chamber is absurd and so very far from the truth, as women like you demonstrate when you join in.

The truth is we are all just “ordinary women”, from a range of immensely different backgrounds, who have found our way individually to this topic and follow it because we care about our rights and the rights of the next generations.

Very much agree about the hateful, dehumanising language women use about each other. It’s such an ingrained habit.

@BlueLipstickRocks

Ok, what are you going to do with the female people who cannot use mixed sex spaces?

This is where dialog starts.

I could say what do you do with old school transsexuals who are fully transitioned living in a female gender role who also cannot use certain spaces because of safety issues. The solution of "but we don't care they're all just men" doesn't solve the problem.

This to me looks like the give an inch take a mile scenario, all over again, though.

The thing is blue, your motivation is not relevant. You might be the nicest, kindest, least threatening transsexual on the planet. But a) you have absolutely no way of guaranteeing that anyone else is, and b) no one knows that.

Karen Jones has a GRC and and full genital surgery. They tied up and attempted to rape a woman and were convicted of killing their roommate.

On the paper you want to work with, there is nothing to distinguish them from you.

It's not that I, and many women, don't sympathise. I'm sure gender dysphoria is very difficult. And it's a direct result of the patriarchy, after all. But women aren't your resource. They're just not.

If it's truly fear that's motivating you, then campaign for a third space.

I could say what do you do with old school transsexuals who are fully transitioned living in a female gender role who also cannot use certain spaces because of safety issues. The solution of "but we don't care they're all just men" doesn't solve the problem.

GC women aren’t saying that. They are saying: you were born male, and if you don’t feel safe in male spaces then that is a problem for males to solve. It isn’t a problem for females to solve.

The problem certainly isn’t going to be solved by introducing males into female spaces because having males in female spaces makes so,e women feel unsafe.

Disabled people campaigned for facilities specific to their needs. That seems to me to be the way forward. Third spaces for a specific need.
I know that fear wasn't the only factor, but I'd be much more comfortable with Ds who has suspected cp using a disabled facility than a men's toilet. He's a vulnerable male in that respect.
But he'll still have to stop coming into toilets with me at an appropriate age, because that's what is right.
I'm forever grateful for the people before him that campaigned for disabled accessibility. Their hard work means D's doesn't have to compromise safety or dignity.
Stonewall show turn things around now and do the same for the people they supposedly represent.

GC women aren’t saying that. They are saying: you were born male, and if you don’t feel safe in male spaces then that is a problem for males to solve. It isn’t a problem for females to solve.

Its been solved for now. Its not a perfect solution but the law says I, and other TS people like myself are legally female.
What you're saying is you want that solution removed and for men to find another solution.
And in the meantime I should now only use male spaces because the fact I was born male means I am not entitled to any protection or recognition of my needs.

I may be wrong but wasn’t the GRA a way of politicians avoiding having to pass same sex marriage laws? If so, isn’t it now redundant?

Stonewall show turn things around now and do the same for the people they supposedly represent.

They never did represent transsexuals. They represented a group who wanted to use transsexuals as a trojan horse for an entirely different agenda.

I may be wrong but wasn’t the GRA a way of politicians avoiding having to pass same sex marriage laws? If so, isn’t it now redundant?

It was one of the reasons but certainly not the only one.

Its been solved for now. Its not a perfect solution but the law says

So female people, suck it up and those who are excluded, oh well.

No.

Not an acceptable solution. It is not female people's job to suck up this disadvantage alone. I'm never going to accept that it is.