AIBU to think Maya scored a victory for common sense today?

[DancesWithTortoises]

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402922169559044096?s=20

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

The law just cannot be allowed to tell people what to think.

Hurrah for Maya!

What I would like from you is some recognition that women have suffered, suffer enough. That women have the right to boundaries. That women have the right to respect. That even if it can’t be policed when a biologically male trans person truly passes (which is rare, I’m sure you’ll agree), the decent thing for a male person in that position to do would be to not impose on women.

That the decent thing for all biologically male trans people to do would be to find a solution to their problem that doesn’t take away anything from women. Because the minute you claim entry to our spaces, you are taking something away from us. You’re taking away our single sex spaces and services, and you’re also taking away our right of consent. Just streamrollering right over it.

Yes. Great post.

We weren't asked or consulted and half this only went through on the back of male privilege.

Yes, I think that's what makes me angry. Our consent was just presumed. Who cares what women might feel. I do not consent to any males in female only spaces.

I want to see a time where mutual respect removes a need for boundaries.

Boundaries are actually quite a healthy thing to have. I think we are nowhere near this utopia you dream of.

That the decent thing for all biologically male trans people to do would be to find a solution to their problem that doesn’t take away anything from women.

For me this is the first problem.

A biologically male transvestite should not be included under the same umbrella as a biologically male transsexual.

Its not "their" problem - that implies I have a shared need with every other "trans" person. I most certainly do not.

In adding me to campaign alongside said people you assume I support these umbrella identities. I do not.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark - brilliantly said. Thank you.

So what's stopping you and others like you from forming your own group which campaigns for your own very specific needs, such as third spaces and supplimentry medical literature, mental health services etc?
Now's a good time to form it. It could rise out of the ashes of Stonewall, its obviously needed.

It's not its.

@BlueLipstickRocks

Do you want to try and be part of a better world, where male people observe the boundaries and acknowledge the lived experiences of female people, and show us the respect we deserve, even when they could get away with not doing so?

I don't want to be a part of such a world.

I want to be a part of a world where biological sex is no longer tied to gender roles and stereotypes. Where there us no need for boundaries because opportunities are open to all. I want to be part of a world where noone us discriminated against and everyone us truly equal.

I want to see a time where mutual respect removes a need for boundaries.

And here is the fundamental difference between us - it is because of my biological sex that I both want and need there to be boundaries.

No boundaries is a very slippery slope.
Boundaries exist to protect people. Women. Children.
Boundaries exist for a reason.

So what's stopping you and others like you from forming your own group which campaigns for your own very specific needs, such as third spaces

I represent a group of under 5000 people. I don't represent transgender ideology and would not support rights for those who were not post operative. What your asking is that I campaign for another solution to what we have now until I find one all women agree to. Such an outcome is impossible. You want me to campaign for replacement rights when I already have them.

A biologically male transvestite should not be included under the same umbrella as a biologically male transsexual.

I agree. I also think that a biologically male transsexual should not be included under the same umbrella as a biological female.

In all honesty, it is only because people sought to put (I’m using your terms here) transvestite and transsexual under the same ‘transgender’ umbrella and then insist that the umbrella also shelter women that I began to look more closely at this issue. And then I realised I had been pushed out into the rain, so to speak.

I support unisex third spaces that are open to all who chose to use them (I wouldn’t).

What your asking is that I campaign for another solution to what we have now until I find one all women agree to. Such an outcome is impossible. You want me to campaign for replacement rights when I already have them.

You don't need to do anything. It's a free country. Why do you expect us to agree with you though?

You want me to campaign for replacement rights when I already have them.

Yes, you do have rights under the Equality Act with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. And I support you fully with those rights. However, the same law provides single sex exemptions. And I fully support those too.

Why wouldn’t any man who wants to feel like a woman, not want to find a solution that all women agree to? Why not be respectful of the needs of the sex, woman, that you so want to be?

I realise the group you represent is small. But in the case of third spaces others would champion them.
Trans people
Non binary
Families with older children
Women wanting more options
Women wanting to protect single spaces

They'd be behind you. Currently, what the GRC gives you is not a good solution. Yes for individuals, but it's not going to work every time for every person the same. As has already been pointed out, sadly some very dubious people have obtained a GRC. There may be not many people using it, but it's not elite if such individuals can gain one.
It isn't fit for purpose and as a result of what has been happening there's every likelihood it will get repealed. Then there really will be no better option.

Why wouldn’t any man who wants to feel like a woman, not want to find a solution that all women agree to?

Thats an entirely incorrect assertion over what it means to be transsexuàl.
There is no solution that all women agree to. Many, many women are perfectly fine with post op transsexuals.

@AllDoneIn

Imagine that a woman needed the law to intervene to protect her for saying that A PERSON CANNOT CHANGE THEIR BIOLOGICAL SEX. Really think about that. A woman lost her job for stating BIOLOGICAL REALITY.

I still can't get my head round that part

It isn't fit for purpose and as a result of what has been happening there's every likelihood it will get repealed

More likely I see it being replaced. Laws have existed to support transsexuals for decades. Do you really see the law removing all ttanssexual protection ?

Many, many women are perfectly fine with post op transsexuals.

And many, many aren’t.

So why put this onto them? Why do they have to give up rights they were born with to their own spaces to accommodate the (in your words) less than 5000 people who want to share their space?

Transexual people need protection from harrasment and discrimination.
Like women, homosexual people, disabled people.
They don't need a GRC to access that protection. That's a good thing.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark really wonderful post

@BlueLipstickRocks

Do you want to try and be part of a better world, where male people observe the boundaries and acknowledge the lived experiences of female people, and show us the respect we deserve, even when they could get away with not doing so?

I don't want to be a part of such a world.

I want to be a part of a world where biological sex is no longer tied to gender roles and stereotypes. Where there us no need for boundaries because opportunities are open to all. I want to be part of a world where noone us discriminated against and everyone us truly equal.

I want to see a time where mutual respect removes a need for boundaries.

Whether you intend it to or not, this sounds like selfishness. Dressing it up in idealistic terms obscures it slightly, but basically what comes across to me is, 'I want what I want, & everyone else has to pay'.

You don't want to be part of a world where male people respect female people & observe their boundaries? Why on earth not? Such a world would be safer, happier, more settled & more productive. Who wouldn't want that?

Perhaps males respecting females & observing their boundaries could be a first step towards the ideal society you envisage. Let's work on this first step & when that's been established for a couple of hundred years without backlashes, without misogyny, then we might conclude that humans have changed enough to take the next step - whatever that is.

Perhaps males respecting females & observing their boundaries could be a first step towards the ideal society you envisage.

Or in other words I have to stop being transsexual.

@BlueLipstickRocks

Perhaps males respecting females & observing their boundaries could be a first step towards the ideal society you envisage.

Or in other words I have to stop being transsexual.

That is not what is being suggested at all.

And what about women who are not okay with male-bodied people in their spaces?

How come someone's desire to be in women's spaces overrides my desire to have a women-only space?