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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think Maya scored a victory for common sense today?

999 replies

DancesWithTortoises · 10/06/2021 11:29

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402922169559044096?s=20

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

The law just cannot be allowed to tell people what to think.

Hurrah for Maya!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 11/06/2021 11:54

there are still those going yes, yes, you have a point, but you still must give up some of that to male people

Exactly, Artichokeleaves. Women exist to make things right/better for male people.

The same old song. On and on and on.

It was horrible realisation when I understood that women are actually considered second-class citizens.

And this situation is no different. It was forcibly born in on me when we talk about women's spaces, but we actually mean women.

It's not the space that's important. If all the women left and went elsewhere, the space would be redundant. It's the constant presence of women, in the space, that is required.

The women themselves are the crucial element. They are necessary to validate those who want the access. They are props, a resource, a validation tool. This is their use.

And we're not allowed to say no. Women have spent years and years, and millions of words, and taken up numerous court cases, because what they need is ignored.

This is a fantastic win for women, because now they are legally entitled to speak. One of the gags has been removed. And there are consequences for those who want to put them back on.

And yes, for me, the answer is still no.

Every word, Datun. Every word.

Pumperthepumper · 11/06/2021 11:54

Great, thanks Datun.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 11/06/2021 11:56

Also fresh over in FWR is this amazing - truly amazing - thread/article:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4267939-Working-with-Stonewall-is-no-longer-compatible-with-NHS-values-Comment-Health-Service-Journal

For those with an interest in the subject!

WarriorN · 11/06/2021 12:04

Great recent posts from three posters with LangCleg in their names.

she's going to need a blue tick when she comes back which I believe she should

WarriorN · 11/06/2021 12:05

It was horrible realisation when I understood that women are actually considered second-class citizens.

Yes. World over it seems.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 11/06/2021 12:18

@WarriorN

I agree that in practise third spaces are a huge need.
TRAs don't want them - they are not "validating" enough.
TooYoungToNotice · 11/06/2021 12:23

Talkingtolangcleginthedark your posts are so well thought out and erudite. You've covered pretty much everything I would have wanted to say so thank you for saying it better than I could.

My heart does fall when I see posts on here littered with terms like bitch and cow thrown around by women. We don't use animal names to slur men and yet so many women seem to use them freely without giving a single thought to how debasing they are. It's just a tiny example of how we need to work on internalized misogyny as well as society"s drive to treat women as less than human.

A heartfelt thank you to Maya . It must have been immensely stressful and exhausting to fight that particular fight on which weighed so much.

I don't post on the feminist boards (not very good with words!) But I do loiter there and recommend it to anyone who hasn't been over. It's provided an invaluable space for women to discuss these issues in the face of much opposition. Who can forget James Feltham's Twitter outrage at Mumsnet daring to engage with a union to offer women legal advice during the first lockdown. There"s always a good insight into current issues affecting women and usually links to relevant campaigns. Well worth a look.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 11/06/2021 12:24

[quote GromblesOfGrimbledon]@lifeturnsonadime

There presumably needs to be a distinction between those who come within that protected characteristic and those who identify as trans which, as we know, includes a wide range of people including cross dressers and non binary.

This is precisely correct. Transwomen should fight for this with the most urgency. There should be a robust route towards identifying as trans. So many transwomen are being screwed over by the push for self-ID, as much as women are.

This is the route of all our current problems. The definition of "trans". [/quote]
Good post/s!

crosstalk · 11/06/2021 12:24

Interesting that the Labour, Libs and Greens all support the transactivist programme. And that Con Maria Miller who led the Women and Equalities committee report recommending self ID etc said most of the people opposing it "were women purporting to be feminists". I wonder where she stands now?

I like the Scots slogan "you don't get my X if you don't respect my sex"

No one currently gets my X.

Ylfa · 11/06/2021 12:26

Oh. The language on sanpro packets discussion is one of the least interesting angles imaginable, it’s all a bit too us and them. The language will naturally evolve along with other changes in the way we understand sex and gender identity?

WarriorN · 11/06/2021 12:27

TRAs don't want them - they are not "validating" enough.

Well, they need to work it out themselves; women are pretty fed up with having to do all the hard work.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/06/2021 12:36

Pumper and co. I have started a linguistics thread in get so this one doesn't get derailed. Please feel free to discuss language there.

Great, I will join over there too as this subject is of interest to me.

BlueLipstickRocks · 11/06/2021 12:37

Whilst there is a perfectly valid argument to say that typically men and women have different needs and requirements when it comes to spaces it concerns me at how black and what things have become.

As a transexual I acknowledge my natal sex but that does not mean I consider that natal sex should definitively determine I should be seen no differently to the sex class of "man".

We have seen far too much allowing ridiculous trans rights to trump women's rights. The fix is not to reverse this position but to open a dialogue.

It upsets me to see comments like "this is mens problem to fix now". I see this as a society problem and all parties have a part to play. The problem is not resolved simply by passing it to someone else.

Toilets to me are about need. A male toilet is geared towards a quick turn around with mainly urinals. A female toilet is based on individual cubicles and sanitary facilities.

In this regard therefore a space is about anatomy rather than natal sex. If you have a penis you use the mens because the space is set up for that anatomy for example.

The question is therefore do these needs change following reassignment surgery. They do. A post op person can no longer use a urinal. At times they need sanitary facilities.

Equally a trans man typically needs a female space.

My person view is that need is therefore about anatomy even if that anatomy is surgically acquired. No question a penis never belongs in a female space.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/06/2021 12:45

Well, they need to work it out themselves; women are pretty fed up with having to do all the hard work.

Amen to this.

BlueLipstickRocks · 11/06/2021 12:47

Well, they need to work it out themselves; women are pretty fed up with having to do all the hard work.

A problem is not solved my making it someone else problem.

This ruling allows discourse to now take place without the historic abuse and silencing of women
This is a start not an end.

Rejoiningperson · 11/06/2021 12:58

@WarriorN

TRAs don't want them - they are not "validating" enough.

Well, they need to work it out themselves; women are pretty fed up with having to do all the hard work.

This is for me a crucial point. I am busy! I have kids and work and a dog.

It should be enough to say ‘NO’ this will cause harm. It should just be enough to say No full stop. The onus should not be on women to sort out trans women’s wishes.

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 11/06/2021 13:01

It should be enough to say ‘NO’ this will cause harm. It should just be enough to say No full stop. The onus should not be on women to sort out trans women’s wishes.

Women don't have to find a solution. Not our circus, not our monkeys.

BlueLipstickRocks · 11/06/2021 13:08

The onus should not be on women to sort out trans women’s wishes.

The problem is mamy women seem to want to take away transsexual rights.

Right now as a post op transsexual the law permits me to use female spaces. The argument on here seeks to take that away.

Rejoiningperson · 11/06/2021 13:08

A problem is not solved my making it someone else problem.

It is someone else’s problem though isn’t it? A man wanting to go into a female single sex ward in a hospital is not the female’s problem. The onus is on the man who wants to do that - it’s his wishes and wants - and it is up to him to do the thorough researching of why there are single sex wards in the first place and why there are problems with mixed wards - and how not to do any harm. There are many possible ways he could propose this as least harm - one of them is by being treated as a woman in a man’s single sex ward. All of these can be thoroughly researched, proposed and harms weighed up against wishes.

WarriorN · 11/06/2021 13:09

Rejoining yes, I wasn't just taking about the court cases!

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 11/06/2021 13:23

Right now as a post op transsexual the law permits me to use female spaces. The argument on here seeks to take that away.

Your rights as a holder of a GRC still stand.

Fieldofgreycorn · 11/06/2021 13:31

Right now as a post op transsexual the law permits me to use female spaces. The argument on here seeks to take that away.

That’s correct. Many here have made it clear they want the GRA repealed.

Others want the exemptions made clearer/ stronger. So that female spaces are female by birth sex only. Effectively rendering the GRA pointless.

I’m not sure this is what Baroness Falkner was intending would happen... but who knows.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/06/2021 13:37

Right now as a post op transsexual the law permits me to use female spaces.

As you should know, there are provisions in the Equality Act for some spaces and services to be for biological females only, regardless of GRC. The law permits this to happen. But I don't see the point in berating women for wanting strictly female spaces, we don't all agree, as we have discussed on other threads.

Datun · 11/06/2021 13:43

Others want the exemptions made clearer/ stronger. So that female spaces are female by birth sex only. Effectively rendering the GRA pointless.

Exceptions are written into law, precisely because of the GRA. It was recognised that even with a GRC, there are times when a man's sex must be acknowledged. Women aren't taking anything away, they are trying to make service providers aware of the actual law.

This problem is not of women's making. Take it up with Stonewall who widened the umbrella to include hundreds of thousands of extra people and then spent the next six or seven years misinforming the country about what it means. The only reason it worked in the first place was because of low numbers. The principle is exactly the same.