AIBU to think Maya scored a victory for common sense today?

[DancesWithTortoises]

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402922169559044096?s=20

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

The law just cannot be allowed to tell people what to think.

Hurrah for Maya!

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Ok. Thanks for your answer.

Perhaps, now we've got that out of the way the thread could get back to the topic of Maya Forstater's court ruling and what it means?

Which specific bit?

@jellybeansforbreakfast wants to have the conversation about compromise too. So it’s not just me.

Oh well you can chose any specific bit you like

I enjoyed this analysis ... which may have been mentioned here already

For example it mentions that amnesty ireland may want to rethink their suggestions that women with gc views should be excluded from representation

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/forstater-judgment-what-next-peter-daly?src=aff-lilpar&veh=affsrc.aff-lilparrc.partnerspkw.100788plc.Skimbit%20Ltd.pcrid.4496700learning&trk=affsrc.aff-lilparrc.partnerspkw.100788plc.Skimbit%20Ltd.pcrid.4496700learning&clickid=U-IzHLQMHxyLUbHwUx0Mo3EtUkBwpK0tnTW5y40&irgwc=1

@GladAllOver

Sex being real is not a belief. It's simply a FACT.

I agree

It’s not ‘holding a belief’ it’s stating a fact

And it’s really incredible we got to the stage we did with this

So pleased Maya didn’t just accept it, for all of us

It’s great news, and I’m delighted about it. There are other issues to discuss though.

Actions speak louder than words, Pumper.

And I have seen nothing from you to convince me that you are genuinely pleased about this outcome; nothing to convince me that the best interests of women and girls (aka biologically female people) are close to your heart in any way.

Nothing at all.

Thank you Maya for standing up for my rights to equality as a biological woman. It's become such an emotive issue for me since having an awful pregnancy, traumatic birth and life changing birth injuries (OASI). Not to mention the ongoing sleep deprivation of being a breastfeeding mother. Since my traumatic birth I find the idea of a biological sex change triggering, I feel like denying my biology is failing to recognise the trauma I have gone through because of my biological sex.

@midgedude

Oh well you can chose any specific bit you like

I enjoyed this analysis ... which may have been mentioned here already

For example it mentions that amnesty ireland may want to rethink their suggestions that women with gc views should be excluded from representation

[[https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/forstater-judgment-what-next-peter-daly?src=aff-lilpar&veh=aff]]src.aff-lilparrc.partnerspkw.100788plc.Skimbit%20Ltd.pcrid.4496700learning&trk=affsrc.aff-lilparrc.partnerspkw.100788plc.Skimbit%20Ltd.pcrid.4496700learning&clickid=U-IzHLQMHxyLUbHwUx0Mo3EtUkBwpK0tnTW5y40&irgwc=1

Yes, it’s excellent. It’s a fantastic step forward and as I said above, I think will have a huge ripple effect on loads of other circumstances. What a brave woman Maya is.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

It’s great news, and I’m delighted about it. There are other issues to discuss though.

Actions speak louder than words, Pumper.

And I have seen nothing from you to convince me that you are genuinely pleased about this outcome; nothing to convince me that the best interests of women and girls (aka biologically female people) are close to your heart in any way.

Nothing at all.

Ok. Well, I’m not really sure what I can say to that. It’s a great result, it’s exactly how it should be and it should never have got to this stage anyway. Sex is not gender. Transwomen shouldn’t be in female prisons. What else can I say?

And it’s really incredible we got to the stage we did with this

So pleased Maya didn’t just accept it, for all of us

Yes!

Since my traumatic birth I find the idea of a biological sex change triggering, I feel like denying my biology is failing to recognise the trauma I have gone through because of my biological sex.

I sometimes cut them more slack, as they are just finding the best navigating a misogynistic society, so it's easier just to go along with what men want.

Agreed, Eresh. It’s just another example of the way women are harmed, growing up and living in a society that has been male dominated/male supremacist since the beginnings of recorded time. We can’t underestimate the effects of living in a culture that has been shaped across literally thousands of years with this key tenet at its centre, worldwide, until very, very recently.

We learn, consciously or unconsciously, to depreciate ourselves, just as men learn to depreciate us (if that’s a word); we internalise that misogyny.

Sometimes it’s about surviving any way you can. Sometimes the truth is simply too painful to acknowledge, similar to when women post on Relationships, asking if they’re being too sensitive and then cataloguing the abuse their partners subject them to. When other posters tell them it’s categorically not ok, not their fault, and is in fact abuse, many women stop engaging altogether because they don’t yet have the resources to take action, and it’s just not possible for them to face how bad their situation is. Because it’s devastating.

I think it’s similar when you realise how bad misogyny still is. And I’m not surprised so many women just can’t go there. It’s a heavy load to carry. I think it’s only when the weight of the denial becomes heavier and more unbearable than the weight of the realisation that it’s abuse that some women can finally open their eyes.

Because I do think what is done to women and girls is a form of structural, systemic abuse, and the runaway success of the “trans rights” movement is just one form and manifestation of that.

Which is another reason I could and would never agree that a person born male is or could be any kind of woman. Someone born and socialised male just has no idea of the reality and impact of female socialisation, and the tensions that creates within you. No more than they have any idea of the reality of living and moving through the world in a biologically female body.

@Pumperthepumper

This is derailing the thread. However what are you asking for exactly? Are you asking me for a word to describe myself as a woman?

WOMAN

Is there anything else?

[quote Rejoiningperson]@Pumperthepumper

This is derailing the thread. However what are you asking for exactly? Are you asking me for a word to describe myself as a woman?

WOMAN

Is there anything else?[/quote]
I don’t know how I can be any clearer. Are you saying you’ll only be happy with the word ‘woman’ and no trans inclusion anywhere?

Me being a woman is nothing to do with transwoman. Whatever a man who feels like a woman calls themselves is up to them.

So yes, only the word WOMAN for a WOMAN. Simple. I don’t think I need to answer again. I don’t know why you need to change my word for me. But that’s your problem really.

@Pumperthepumper I’d be very interested in a separate discussion about how a more gender fluid and inclusive society can evolve whilst protecting sex based rights and freedoms for women and girls - yours are the first posts I’ve seen on MN that are close to my own views. Is there such a thread and if so could you link? Thanks. I struggle with the rigidity of the divide here, it’s like brokering peace in the Middle East.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

Fantastic posts.

But this issue, the issue of male people being able to so effortlessly roll back women’s rights - our rights to boundaries, to speak about our own needs and experiences, to gather together in public without the presence of any male people - it brought home to me that for all the equality legislation we have, for all the fact there are some women in high office these days, there is still an unspoken collective agreement that women - biologically female people - just don’t matter as much as men - biologically male people. We just don’t have the same status in society. We are still not seen as fully human - and obviously the fact that so many places do openly treat women as second class citizens feeds into our collective (unconscious) understanding of what it is to be a woman or a man.

It was horrible realisation when I understood that women are actually considered second-class citizens.

And this situation is no different. It was forcibly born in on me when we talk about women's spaces, but we actually mean women.

It's not the space that's important. If all the women left and went elsewhere, the space would be redundant. It's the constant presence of women, in the space, that is required.

The women themselves are the crucial element. They are necessary to validate those who want the access. They are props, a resource, a validation tool. This is their use.

And we're not allowed to say no. Women have spent years and years, and millions of words, and taken up numerous court cases, because what they need is ignored.

This is a fantastic win for women, because now they are legally entitled to speak. One of the gags has been removed. And there are consequences for those who want to put them back on.

And yes, for me, the answer is still no.

And we're not allowed to say no. That is so true! What is important about this case is that it was the denial of the existence of women - so not even being able say ‘No’... because there is no such thing if you deny the truth of biology - which was quite frightening.

It's like repeatedly demanding that a vegetarian clarifies what they want the meat-eater to have for dinner. The reply is "As long as I can have vegetables, I don't GAF whether the meat-eater wants sausages or steak."

Pumper and co. I have started a linguistics thread in get so this one doesn't get derailed. Please feel free to discuss language there.

It's called plain English Gender and compromise.

Sadly elements, as a vegan I can tell you that is exactly what some people do. They also expect vegans to solve world hunger because they've made a personal ethical choice.

Anyway, enough derailing there is a separate thread now.

And we're not allowed to say no. Women have spent years and years, and millions of words, and taken up numerous court cases, because what they need is ignored

And as proven even on this thread, when women say no, when women talk about the boundaries they need to meet the sex based needs of being female, their feelings, their identity...

there are still those going yes, yes, you have a point, but you still must give up some of that to male people

No isn't heard. No is met with outrage and disbelief. No is still regarded as a group getting above themselves and saying no to those more important. And respecting their rights and returning their boundaries to meet female is framed as wholly unacceptable 'rolling back' trans rights for male people to use female spaces at will. There is never respect in return for the respect being demanded.

I think this is very much on topic for Maya's case: the whole case for insisting women accept their single sex provisions being used by male people regardless of impact is that those male people must be regarded as women. It is now not only possible without being arrested or threatened but a belief that must be respected for a woman to say that how ever much they respect this person's identity, they do not perceive them as a woman, they do not perceive them as being same sex, and they want a single sex space please in line with their beliefs.

Third spaces. It's going to have to be where this goes. It will though require establishing that female people needing single sex spaces exist, are as important as all male people, and that single sex spaces for female people must be respected as such. This whole ruling was about mutual tolerance.

@Rejoiningperson

Me being a woman is nothing to do with transwoman. Whatever a man who feels like a woman calls themselves is up to them.

So yes, only the word WOMAN for a WOMAN. Simple. I don’t think I need to answer again. I don’t know why you need to change my word for me. But that’s your problem really.

Ok. Thanks for your answer.

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

It's called plain English Gender and compromise.

Sadly elements, as a vegan I can tell you that is exactly what some people do. They also expect vegans to solve world hunger because they've made a personal ethical choice.

Anyway, enough derailing there is a separate thread now.

Thanks Mousey, that’s great! I’ll head over there now.

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

Pumper and co. I have started a linguistics thread in get so this one doesn't get derailed. Please feel free to discuss language there.

Mousey, I can’t see it in AIBU or FWR, where did you post it?