AIBU to think Maya scored a victory for common sense today?

[DancesWithTortoises]

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402922169559044096?s=20

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

The law just cannot be allowed to tell people what to think.

Hurrah for Maya!

But trans women aren't acting at being women they are women.

Er, no, they are NOT women, @LadyFidgetAndHerHandbag And nothing you can say will make that lie true.

@BarbarianMum

There is no middle ground *@Pumperthepumper* but there is common ground. The right of women and transwomen to safety, respect and tolerance.

Ok, common ground then - what does that look like? What’s the outcome we’re aiming for?

Edinburgh University actually tell their staff that “reasonable concerns” is itself “a big red flag phrase” when used by women.

Wow, that reveals more than the writer intended, doesn't it? Women have no right to feel concerned. Their concerns don't count. Thanks for letting us know your standpoint, Edinburgh University.

As a woman I am looking for safety, respect, tolerance and equality. That would include the provision of single sex spaces and exemptions where necessary to achieve this.

@MintyMabel

Hang on, I've been deleted? What the fuck for?

Because when people post this stuff outside the Feminism echo chamber, they don't like anyone who disagrees with them.

I love it when people refer to Feminism Chat as an echo chamber while totalling ignoring that many of the posters on the thread are not regulars to that board and that polls seem to never back up their views.

In fact, point to the fact that those referring to 'echo chambers' are the ones who are probably cushioned in one with their own minority views.

It is about as reliable as Stonewall's interpretation of reality really.

I cried reading her statement , I have five daughters, am very thankful.

This IS the middle ground: we don’t have to agree with each other’s beliefs but we respect them and are lawfully able to articulate them. That’s it, that’s the middle ground.

LadyFidget

@AutistGoth

One thing that I've been thinking all along (well, since about 2018) is that the TRA activists would ultimately bring about their own undoing with their refusal to listen to concerns. They knew that they had to keep spinning ever more elaborate fantasies and all they had were insults, cancellation and aggression. Whereas all GC people had to keep doing was standing our ground, telling the truth and sticking to facts. Indeed, the very fact that TRAs were (for the most part, at least) unwilling to debate civilly is evidence that they knew that their arguments wouldn't stand up against facts - that's why they had to cancel us. Not only could they not cancel and silence us forever, their behaviour is also not a good way to bring someone on the fence around to your way of thinking.

There is a long way to go, but the first of the tides are turning.

One thing that I've been thinking all along (well, since about 2018) is that the TRA activists would ultimately bring about their own undoing with their refusal to listen to concerns.

This is exactly what is happening. And they only have themselves to blame. They are their own worst enemies.

The karma is so well-deserved.

Stonewall have a glossary of terms and definitions.

“Woman” isn’t in it.

Or what it means to “live as a woman”.

@BarbarianMum

As a woman I am looking for safety, respect, tolerance and equality. That would include the provision of single sex spaces and exemptions where necessary to achieve this.

Great! And where’s the overlap into trans rights that you’d be happy with?

Can folk stop putting the boot in to Fidget pls? She's had some bad health news.

It's fine that most of us disagree with her, but carrying on at her after hearing that is unnecessary.

Brilliant.

I doesn't ages trying f to explain to someone (who should have the intelligence to understand) that trans woman are still biologically and sexually physically male and identify as female via gender.

That transsexuals will have surgery to lower testosterone and sometimes to create a vagina ( as much as you can)

They couldn't under stand that just saying "I'm a woman" did not actually make you a woman. That sex is binary.

It blew their mind completely when I tried to explain that these people then want to erase the use of the word woman at the same time and use person.

Some people are so included up on the actual realism of woman being erased as a group.

I do feel the tide is turning. Although if anyone reads the midi bodi thread it seems some places are going backwards!

@SimonedeBeauvoirscat

This IS the middle ground: we don’t have to agree with each other’s beliefs but we respect them and are lawfully able to articulate them. That’s it, that’s the middle ground.

There’s still an awful lot of anger around though - the post on modibody for example.

One thing that I've been thinking all along (well, since about 2018) is that the TRA activists would ultimately bring about their own undoing with their refusal to listen to concerns

I absolutely agree. They don’t want to listed to so many women’s concerns yet claim that they are just like us.

I’m glad the DM is now starting to get it in on this argument it’s needed they reach far more readers and the influence is wide unlike social media

Maybe this English Rugby definition that would have been influenced by Stonewall would be a good place to start. Stonewall have provided a great deal of support to that organisation to shape their policies.

'Female: a person who does not produce male levels of testosterone at puberty and adolescence'
England Rugby.

@HavelockVetinari

Can folk stop putting the boot in to Fidget pls? She's had some bad health news.

It's fine that most of us disagree with her, but carrying on at her after hearing that is unnecessary.

Hear hear

Well done Maya.

I just can't wait to see all the cowards who were silent on this issue for years come slithering forth now, saying that they were never comfortable with gender ideology theory.

(Maybe 'coward' is a bit harsh given how many people were in fear of their livelihoods, but there are so many wealthy and influential types who did not speak out and who should be ashamed.)

What a fabulous outcome. And of course both sides of the debate shouldn't harass each other. But it's great that gender critical women can now discuss their views, free from harm and harassment. I suspect it might be much easier for us to stick to the rules of not harassing people. After all, we've been forced to be polite and reasonable, despite the onslaught of death and rape threats towards us.

ladyfidget

So sorry you’ve had bad news 💐

Well done Maya!!! Amazing news today.

@NoNever

It’s insane this had to go to court in the first place, but I am relieved that believing in reality is once again worthy of respect in a democratic society.

Me too. Agree wholeheartedly

@MintyMabel

Hang on, I've been deleted? What the fuck for?

Because when people post this stuff outside the Feminism echo chamber, they don't like anyone who disagrees with them.

You get deleted for biscuit, yawn and bless on FWR, let alone personal attacks

MNHQ are not clear on whether emoji etc will get you a deletion ....but they are VERY clear that personal attacks will

Can women stop trying to silence women?

Yes please!