'Joke' or HR matter?

[MapleSyrupMoose]

New name as I don't want this linked to my other posts.

I absolutely adore my job and can sometimes get a bit obsessive about new projects. Last week, I was up cycling in the wee hours of the morning, had a sudden idea, and sent an email to a colleague of mine (work email address) regarding this. He almost immediately sent a message to my personal phone number saying, 'Wow you're up early', followed by one saying, 'I don't know why women like you bother working, you could probably sell nudes online and make a fortune'. I ignored him. We had a teams meeting a few hours later and I largely ignored him too. He then sent a message saying, 'Come on, it's just a joke'!

Would I be overreacting if I reported this to HR? Or should I just take it as a 'joke' and move on? We're about the same age (20s but I'm not sure if that matters) in the same role.

It’s a million miles away. Boys aren’t at home scared and bewildered by a dozen classmates pestering them for nudes. Young men aren’t being told to do online porn by female colleagues. All behaviour on a continuum, part of a much wider picture of sexism and women being pushed out of the workplace, down the ladder, back to the kitchen/bedroom, routinely harassed and assaulted all the fucking time. Being told you should be a chippendale once is a drop in the fucking ocean of misogyny and harassment women negotiate from ten years old if not before.

Easy.

‘Jokes are meant to be funny. That wasn’t. Catch you later.’

Job done

They aren’t similar comments. I can absolutely see that you lack empathy towards women’s experience of sexual harassment but that isn’t women’s fault. So far you have minimised what happened to the op, claimed your experience is comparable (it isn’t) and decided that men won’t care about women’s suffering because women aren’t putting them first in discussions about sexual harassment, a phenomenon perpetrated by men towards women relentlessly and insidiously. I don’t want to discuss it anywhere else, thanks!

'Men ogling women is not dissimilar to women ogling men. '

Erm men tend to be

Bigger
Stronger
More prone to violence and sexual violence by a very long way.

However yes you're right let's not derail. Are you going to start another thread? Put the link here so people know.

Oh I see the MRA derailer is here. Any whataboutery on men's mental heath yet?

Totally inappropriate comment, and he knew it - hence why not sent via reply on work email but to your personal number. So insulting to be sent that in response to a work idea!
It sounds like a compliment, but it isn't really is it? Why do you bother coming up with ideas and using your brain when you could 'just' take your clothes off for money - for men.

The nasty sub-text: you are an object, your value is in your appearance, you exist for men to look at. This is a compliment because from me, as a man - I get to judge your value.
Also 'its just a joke'...WTF.

Ultimately you decide what you want to do, as is your right as a woman and a person. He doesn't get to choose. Personally I'd be telling him this is inappropriate communication, made me feel uncomfortable and not to contact me unless for work reasons. I'd be keeping a record of that for future HR too. What a tool, and what a sense of ownership he displayed. Worst thing is there's no sense of self-awareness, his misogyny is so embedded he can't see what his so wrong about this.
And for those saying, it's just a joke, he's young - it's exactly that acceptance that mean women get used to putting up with this crap when they should be happy to be stamping it out! Would he have said the same to an email from your CEO?

You offered to start another thread trite as you said you were derailing?!

Well why not? There's loads of threads about all sorts.

You also touched on stuff about impact on young men of images of muscly men everywhere, body dysmorphia (so).

Many posters on MN have sons and worry about this.

There's also steroids, and loads of other stuff tbh as well.

It's a massive issue and I don't see why not have a thread tbh.

So start another thread.

If you read my response you will see that I said I have witnessed female on male sexism in the workplace and I think it's shit.

@waterproofed

HR

He’s threatened by your commitment and energy so tries to remind you that he still sees you through the prism of your sex. Oh, you had an idea? That’s cute, but why aren’t you showing me your tits instead? A joke my arse.

This is the patriarchy is action. I bet your idea was good OP and it pissed him off. He'd like you to clear out of his path so sets out to demean and humiliate you.

Hey presto! Instead of happily cycling along coming up with great ideas for a job you love, you're now spending time on a forum wondering how best to deal with his sexual harassment of you. Job done. You're on the back foot, he saunters forward (and probably nicks your idea to boot).

I'm not at all dismissing the OPs situation.

OH yes you were. And THEN went on to compound it with a "buuut what about da MENZ"

My point is that if we give men and boys the message that body dysmorphia/insecurity isn't a big issue then how can we expect them to empathise with girls/women experiencing the exact same thing.

I've seen you around doing that "but what did I do?" and you have been told. So pack it in. If you have genuine issues/will to discuss these things start a thread as was suggested. (or did you and I missed it?)

As for this: This is going to be my last post on this thread as I see 'the regulars' have arrived to shoo away the man who dares post.
My eyes rolled so much I can see out of the back of my head.

OP - what did you decide in the end?

Small update. I was in a teams meeting today with the colleague from the OP, another 3 colleagues, and a woman from a branch in another country. Meeting went great, and right after that woman left someone said, 'She's a 9/10,' which, ok, fine. Colleague from the OP then said, 'Do you reckon she's on Only Fans? Would love to see her topless'. I said, 'Seriously mate? So inappropriate,' after which the 9/10 comment guy replied with, 'Everyone's on it now what's the big deal'. It's a fairly casual office environment so there's usually a fair amount of 'banter' going around but this doesn't feel the same. Can't wait till our usual manager is back from leave as no one made these comments back when he's in the call.

@MapleSyrupMoose

Small update. I was in a teams meeting today with the colleague from the OP, another 3 colleagues, and a woman from a branch in another country. Meeting went great, and right after that woman left someone said, 'She's a 9/10,' which, ok, fine. Colleague from the OP then said, 'Do you reckon she's on Only Fans? Would love to see her topless'. I said, 'Seriously mate? So inappropriate,' after which the 9/10 comment guy replied with, 'Everyone's on it now what's the big deal'. It's a fairly casual office environment so there's usually a fair amount of 'banter' going around but this doesn't feel the same. Can't wait till our usual manager is back from leave as no one made these comments back when he's in the call.

None of that is fine. Not even the 9/10 comment.

This sounds like a deeply toxic and misogynistic environment. Do you feel like you can escalate this?

Your update.

I've worked in some really 'rough and ready' male dominated places and even there, none of my colleagues would ever talk like that. There's something very toxic going on in your workplace. Completely out of order and such a hostile work environment for women. Please report both incidents to your manager.

I am now starting to hope that this is not true. Your work place is deeply misogynistic. This is not appropriate in any way.

This is the Unison definition of harassment.
'Harassment can be defined as conduct which is unwanted and offensive and affects the dignity of an individual or group of individuals. Whether the harassment is intentional or not is irrelevant; the key is that the person being harassed sees the
comments or actions as offensive, demeaning, disrespectful or unacceptable.
Harassment is caused by prejudice against
specific members of society, as in racial and sexual harassment, or harassment on the grounds of sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, age, religion or nationality. Most forms of discrimination are outlawed by specific legislation, so it is important to recognise when bullying takes
a discriminatory form.

www.unison.org.uk/get-help/knowledge/discrimination/bullying-and-harassment/

He had one chance, he must have realised that you did not think his behaviour appropriate. He should have been watching his behaviour around you but he has shown that he does not respect you and will continue to push boundaries. Report this.

Oh my days.

You need to report, OP.

I would email HR and say you don't want to take anything further at the moment but while the manager has been of this has happened (text and meeting) and you wanted to make them aware.

I would also have a chat with your manager when he's back. If they don't do it when he's there then he's obviously not like that. He needs to know.

You don't need to make ahooha etc and I know it's hard but I think you should let them know in case it gets worse.