'Joke' or HR matter?

[MapleSyrupMoose]

New name as I don't want this linked to my other posts.

I absolutely adore my job and can sometimes get a bit obsessive about new projects. Last week, I was up cycling in the wee hours of the morning, had a sudden idea, and sent an email to a colleague of mine (work email address) regarding this. He almost immediately sent a message to my personal phone number saying, 'Wow you're up early', followed by one saying, 'I don't know why women like you bother working, you could probably sell nudes online and make a fortune'. I ignored him. We had a teams meeting a few hours later and I largely ignored him too. He then sent a message saying, 'Come on, it's just a joke'!

Would I be overreacting if I reported this to HR? Or should I just take it as a 'joke' and move on? We're about the same age (20s but I'm not sure if that matters) in the same role.

This

@MyrtlethePurpleTurtle

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57345662.amp

Others would disagree that it's nonsense, but scoff away. As I mentioned upthread, in no way did I suggest this is enshrined in law. I said it was a guideline for people to follow to help better work life balance.

I mean just because YOU might think it nonsense, doesn't mean it's not a thing people have given some consideration to.

Honestly Op
I think based on the business world I work in going straight to HR with that would be deemed as overkill. I would approach him first and tell him it's inappropriate and if it continued I'd absolutely report him.

Coincidentally just saw this report...
www.bbc.com/news/education-57411363

This is why we need to challenge this shit whenever we can - there’s such a massive cultural issue at play. Totally understand why OP feels she can’t report it - it’s a daunting thing to do. Sadly the fear of it impacting us negatively is how these absolute shitbags get away with it.

I’m still so depressed by this thread, especially those who work in HR, treating this like a petty disagreement.

I would report him, and I wouldn't care if he got fired.
In fact, I think the more that men start to get disciplined and fired for this behaviour, the more chance we have of it stopping.
I cannot believe so many women are advocating letting it slide so he doesn't suffer any consequences. Genuinely can't believe it.

One of my daughters worked in a cafe in her early 20s and a guy she worked with in his 50s kept commenting on her fantastic body. He did it in a ‘careful’ way so it wasn’t obviously creepy for example he would keep asking her about what stomach exercises she did etc. She did speak to him directly but he brushed off her comments and said he was just being complimentary.

She then spoke to the area manager who told her it was just because he wasn’t British (yes seriously! ) and that when guys behaved like that to her when she was younger she just took advantage of it and got them to do the heavy lifting etc. my daughter pushed the point and said it makes her feel uncomfortable and the area manager said she could wear more baggy clothes.

Yes, really! You couldn’t make this shit up.

This was a big chain that say when you work for them you are ‘joining a family’ and that you will find them ‘respectful and supportive of one another’

Thankfully it was only a stop gap job for my daughter who know works in a grad scheme where this type of shit doesn’t seem to be tolerated.

Hi

Only on MN intermittently so was not avoiding the question.

For the record, I was not suggesting to brush it off, that there is a hierarchy of abuse, that not to report in case he got in trouble.

What was said was wrong. Indefensible.

I did say take action.

I simply suggested that the OP first said no, do not repeat this behaviour ever. Stop now.

My simple query was whether the best first step was to go to HR.

I guess my response was to something broader I see on MN a lot. It seems to be an automatic reaction on MN that if something happens, HR is the best first step. Never to challenge. Just to go straight to HR.

Sometimes it is better for some people to first say no and do not repeat.

(And by the way, if it needs elevating then sometimes a line manager is often most appropriate.

Managers are paid to manage, and if this needed to be elevated it could be done within the team/division etc.

In the last place I worked, managers were paid to handle these issues, deal with this type of misconduct and fire if appropriate.)

All companies are different.

And people issues can be messy as we are all different.

What might be right for one poster may not be right for another.

Literally every time someone asks on this thread whether the HR people who are advising AGAINST reporting to the HR dept would give the same advice in a situation where racist comments have been made, there is complete silence.

The 'HR people' who have been vocal about NOT reporting seem to fall silent when it comes to replying to this point.

I've seen the question raised at least 5 times.

x-post with alltheusernames but still the point seems to be outstanding.

A worker is racially abused. Should they ask the racist co-worker not to do it again? Don't report racism and racist language?

Some of these posts do make me wonder what an HR department is for

@GuildfordGal

Literally every time someone asks on this thread whether the HR people who are advising AGAINST reporting to the HR dept would give the same advice in a situation where racist comments have been made, there is complete silence.

The 'HR people' who have been vocal about NOT reporting seem to fall silent when it comes to replying to this point.

I've seen the question raised at least 5 times.

Hi, I am one of the HR people. Only on here very intermittently so can't answer everyone/everything.

I think, and I haven't read the whole thread so I can only answer for myself....

I do not think there is a hierarchy. I think both are as indefensible and both are as abusive. End of.

I guess my point is what is the best first step for the OP? In the instance, the OP posted about I simply suggested for OP she might consider saying no/stop in the first instance.

I am not saying she should suck it up, I am not saying do not report in case he gets in trouble.

In many company policies and procedures, the next appropriate step may to report to the line manager (not HR). All companies are different. All policies and procedures are different.

That is all I meant.

@areallthenamesusedup

Hi

Only on MN intermittently so was not avoiding the question.

For the record, I was not suggesting to brush it off, that there is a hierarchy of abuse, that not to report in case he got in trouble.

What was said was wrong. Indefensible.

I did say take action.

I simply suggested that the OP first said no, do not repeat this behaviour ever. Stop now.

My simple query was whether the best first step was to go to HR.

I guess my response was to something broader I see on MN a lot. It seems to be an automatic reaction on MN that if something happens, HR is the best first step. Never to challenge. Just to go straight to HR.

Sometimes it is better for some people to first say no and do not repeat.

(And by the way, if it needs elevating then sometimes a line manager is often most appropriate.

Managers are paid to manage, and if this needed to be elevated it could be done within the team/division etc.

In the last place I worked, managers were paid to handle these issues, deal with this type of misconduct and fire if appropriate.)

All companies are different.

And people issues can be messy as we are all different.

What might be right for one poster may not be right for another.

I'm all for people dealing with things themselves when they are happy to do so but even if they felt like the matter was sorted surely any decent HR person/team would want to be made aware of what had happened.
What reason could there possibly be to NOT tell them.

@BIWI

Some of these posts do make me wonder what an HR department is for

It varies massively. I think that is the issue. That is why there is no simple rule book

Some are glorified payroll departments, some are strategic, some do not get involved in anything except the end of disciplinary matters, some don't get involved but consult with line managers and simply advise.

That is why I say each poster will know what is right for them and their organisation in each circumstance.

@SinkGirl

Given what can happen when women reject men / call them out on their harassment, i am amazed to see HR professionals saying she should deal with it herself. She absolutely shouldn’t have to be worrying about how to deal with this herself - he’s so far over the line, and needs to know that professionally this in unacceptable.

Of course there are instances where colleagues should resolve disputes or disagreements without HR support. Sexual harassment, racism, ableism, homophobia etc are not those situations. Really saddened by some of these comments - it’s 2021 FFS.

Indeed.

And in the case I had to deal with as a manager, I found myself wishing I'd reported more formally with a race issue.

One of our staff was about to be put on a performance improvement plan, and I said in the meeting with his manager that if we ever hired an ethnic minority, he'd be gone within the week. We all knew that he made "off colour" jokes, and lo and behold, he made a serious one, caught in writing, a few days later.

It was gross misconduct by itself, but I was new to management and did the full works on investigating circumstances, and was really annoyed at the lack of evidence I and others had laid down with the "off colour" jokes, even though there were plenty of other disciplinary records for this employee.

Oh and our part time HR manager? She urged me NOT to fire the woman, and was completely unsupportive of my actions. Mind you, this was the same woman who commented on the likelihood of female interviewees having children and bugged me about not changing my name on marriage.

(FWIW, there were plenty of other issues going on in the organisation, and I'm pleased to say that the change in management dramatically increased the diversity of the whole team in terms of gender and race vs the old set up.)

Given what can happen when women reject men / call them out on their harassment, i am amazed to see HR professionals saying she should deal with it herself.

Anyone can claim to be anything on the internet.

alltheusernames thanks for your input, it helps to widen out the point.

My own view is that harmony in the workplace and 'sorting it out' so everyone can get back to normal isn't the priority. If there is no report, there is no record. If there is no record, then men get away with it and are free to escalate their behaviour. If women report, men MIGHT be less likely to offend.

The recent OFSTED report is a national disgrace. Girls are conditioned from childhood to not say anything, to deal with it, to let it go, to hope it gets better.

It's getting worse.

Wtaf. That is gross and inappropriate. What a misogynistic creep.

@BIWI

Some of these posts do make me wonder what an HR department is for

Mostly for strategic protection of the company’s own best interests, imo. Not saying there aren’t some good HR people, but by and large it’s really not about making things better for employees. But that’s a discussion for another day, I think.

@Crazycrazylady

Honestly Op I think based on the business world I work in going straight to HR with that would be deemed as overkill. I would approach him first and tell him it's inappropriate and if it continued I'd absolutely report him.

Same here.

There's a huge gulf of options between doing nothing and immediately going for a formal report to HR based on a single comment.

Whilst the OP does have every right to make a formal report if she wants, there are also more informal options available too, including telling the guy once that his comment was inappropriate (and if it happened again then reporting it, citing the attempt to deal with it informally previously) or speaking with a manager/supervisor and asking them to have a quiet word with the guy.

As for those who are bringing up racist comparisons, I have actually had this happen at work (I'm a union rep) where a member came for advice as two coworkers were making offensive comments. My member did not want the coworkers fired nor did they want to have to go through a formal process they just wanted the comments to stop. I supported him in his meeting with his line manager where he explained the situation and what he wanted to happen. The manager pulled the offending two coworkers into a meeting, told them they had had reports of them making offensive comments and this was their one and only warning to stop - any further reports and they would be formally disciplined. They were given the diversity and equality policy to reread and sign that they understood the content and then sent on their way.

For one of them that warning was enough and the comments stopped, the other one was caught again making offensive comments and he was pulled into a formal disciplinary meeting.

I really really hope that all the people saying "hi, HR here" really aren't. You apparently understand nothing about the dynamics of this kind of sexism in all work places, particularly where men are in the majority and in pretty much all positions of authority.

Y'all need to go back to HR school, or resign and let competent people take over.

in a 24/7 switched on work culture it's recommended to avoid messaging out of office hours to respect work/ life balance etc

this is because companies expect people to answer emails immediately. It is perfectly acceptable to send emails whenever you like. And the person responding replies at their convenience (or within reasonable deadlines within the mail). Who doesn't get that?

@areallthenamesusedup
Such a lot of words and you still have not answered the question: if this was racism instead of sexism would you still advise the OP not to go to HR.

This is a yes/no question and is directed at you and all the other "HR" people on this thread. Just yes/no. No obfuscating, no wordy posts full of blah blah blah. Just "yes" or "no".
Thanks.

I would report this. He might be in a position of power one day with this kind of behaviour unchecked...imagine that.

I used to be a trainer in discrimination and unconscious bias.

With any inappropriate comments, even racist in nature, one the first occasion it is advised that you try to talk to the person about what they said before taking formal action IF YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE DOING SO.

I always used to say that it is important to get people to understand how a comment is received, and give someone the opportunity to change their behaviour.

If you don't feel comfortable talking to them, then a manager, colleague or even an HR professional can have the same, informal conversation.

Only if the person carries on the behaviour after being told the impact of their actions would any formal action take place.

This approach gives everyone equal responsibility to create and maintain a respectful workplace. It also removes the 'walking on eggshells' culture.

[quote Brefugee]@areallthenamesusedup
Such a lot of words and you still have not answered the question: if this was racism instead of sexism would you still advise the OP not to go to HR.

This is a yes/no question and is directed at you and all the other "HR" people on this thread. Just yes/no. No obfuscating, no wordy posts full of blah blah blah. Just "yes" or "no".
Thanks.[/quote]
I have never advised not to go to HR. If that is how it was read because of poor language on my part then I am happy to correct it.

I thought I had said that before.

The OP asked what she should do in this specific instance. I suggested she could consider in this specific instance as a first step to tell the person to stop, desist, cease.

And yes, that includes racism, anti-trans, sexist behaviour, whatever.

If the OP does want to elevate (which would be perfectly understandable), the OP could decide what to do, & who to talk to. Be it her line manager or HR.

I was not telling her that she is "responsible" for sorting the issue out. I was simply suggesting a first move. If the OP does not want to, again that would be understandable and yes, talk to a line mgr or HR.

My general issue is a broader one about many comments across MN on threads...which seem to suggest that only HR can provide resolution, which I am not sure is correct. Sometimes, HR is not the best first port of call.

That is all.

I think its always easier to go straight to HR with a race issue as its tends to be always totally clear cut as in totally unacceptable no matter how they are said.

Comments such as " you look great, have you lost weight" can take on totally different connotations depending on the tone/way that they are said. Genuine comment versus leery glare..
It can be difficult to verbalize though.
It can often come down to he said/she said with the woman often looking over sensitive upon receipt of a genuine compliment from a harmless colleague.

Its all very well and good for people to tell people to march into HR and report everything but we don't have the inside knowledge to know what the likely consequences will be for the Op, Will she be listened to and her colleague spoken to? ignored? pacified and the perpetrator and others told to be wary of here as she is over sensitive ( i've seen this in action). Will she be likely to be ostracized by colleagues friends if he is spoken to.
These kind of perceptions particularly about being "over sensitive" people (wrongly) can often have knock on effects to someones long term career progression.
If the most likely outcome of reporting him is simply a negative one for the Op, I would absolutely advise in the first instance trying to deal with it herself.
The threat may be enough to get him to cease.