Friend and I not speaking - who should apologise?

[AudacityBaby]

I’ve NC for this but a regular user.

I’m infertile and my friend has a toddler and a baby.

I was complaining to her about a work policy that was introduced in March 2020 that allowed those with caring responsibilities to halve their hours on full pay, whilst expecting those without caring responsibilities to pick up the normal workload and additional work created by COVID for no extra pay. A great policy but a pretty unbalanced impact.

The trade off we were told was that everyone working half hours would have to use their annual leave so that those working overtime could be prioritised for longer periods of rest. The problem is that this wasn’t enforced by the employer and now those who are back are insisting on using their annual leave for large stretches of the summer to cover childcare. Which is fair enough, but once again those without are being told that they’ll need to cover and that their break can be September onwards.

Anyway… I was saying to my friend that I’m knackered now and don’t know whether it’s time to look for another job. She said that in her view people with kids are doing something useful for society and therefore the role of those without is to assist them in doing that. I was surprised and said that I didn’t consider my role in life was to help parents, particularly - I’ll help others of course, that’s part of being in a society, but that’s not my purpose! I have my own things too.

She said that childless people aren’t contributing to society long-term and therefore they should be expected to help out like this in times of crisis and not try and attack parents who are doing the best they can and providing for everyone’s future. She also said it’s anti-feminist to refuse to help out as the COVID burden fell mostly on women with children.

I told her how hurt I was at how she apparently viewed my life and we’re not currently speaking. AIBU to be so upset? Is this just something I should chalk up to everyone having had a horrible year and perhaps saying insensitive things? Or is this a sign that we’ve outgrown each other? We’re not as close as we used to be and maybe we just don’t see things the same way.

And no, this isn’t a reverse - I hate the bloody things!

YABU - friend has a point / you’re being petty and need to just let it g
YANBU - friend was insensitive and should be the first to reach out

She said that in her view people with kids are doing something useful for society and therefore the role of those without is to assist them in doing that.

Bollocks to that. It's hurtful, nonsensical, thoughtless and self-centred. I don't have children because I was never in a position to give them what they needed. I didn't have them and then expect other people to pick up the slack on the grounds that I was useful and they weren't.

During the pandemic I have worked 60 - 80+ hours per week. I've literally worked days and nights, going from sleeping night shifts to a day job. It's only now that I've started to ease up on this, because my health was giving out. Your friend has absolutely no idea what other people are going through. Instead she looks at their position and decides they have it easier than her. Bollocks they do.

I think that you don't need this person in your life.

And that policy stinks btw.

Her further reply to you makes it even worse
She’s obvs bitter about her mat leave being ruined

She had maternity leave. Looked after some kids. Big fucking deal. She wasn’t even working

She’s a cunt quite simply

Wow. She’s proper up her own arse. I’ve never heard anything so utterly selfish and non sensical. I’m not sure I could come back from hearing her spouting that absolute and utter selfish self absorbed shite.

I’m trying to describe it as it happened as I know there’s a risk of me trying to make myself look better. I still don’t think I’m being unreasonable but I don’t think she is either

You're being more than fair there @AudacityBaby - I don't think she's really properly apologised. I would not want to have much to do with someone - supposedly a friend - who dismissed my feelings & my health & well-being so easily.

Your work policy is appalling & I would think on the edge of discriminatory.

I actually think her explanation to you this morning akes her look eve worse. She has a very restricted view on how parents and children have had it the worst. I have children and I appreciate that others have had it much worse. Personally I have often thought of those who I've alone and were furloughed and think how I would have hated that more.

Also her unbelievably ridiculous statement that the government should have told all parents not to work. I work in a school, half our staff would have qualified in that case and would not have run. We have parents who are doctors, nurses etc. None of us could have just down tools.

Honestly I think your friend is incredibly selfish and entitled. I absolutely have empathy that she's had a shit time but that doesn't justify her comments that others, without children could not possibly have had an equally worse or more tiring time.

Regardless of who was in the wrong, you should apologise if you value the friendship more than being in the right.

If the argument has made you realise you no longer value the relationship more than being in the right, then don't apologise and let the friendship end.

What do you want the outcome of this to be? Do you want this person in your life? Do you want them to be your friend?

You can apologise and retain the friendship.
You can apologise and end the friendship.
You can wait for her to apologise then when she does remain friends.
You can wait for her to apologise and then when she does end the friendship.
You can wait for her to apologise, and when she doesn't let the friendship end.

I would say that I have sympathy with both of your positions. Working with small children was dangerous and horrendous and I know so many people who had near misses and were close to breakdowns. That experience just wasn’t comparable to people without caring responsibilities.

Equally though your friend wasn’t even working and was on mat leave so wasn’t actually affected and she was incredibly insensitive in terms of what she said to you.

Your employer seems to be in a rock and hard place of trying to be supportive of parents but also pissing off other staff. There are plenty of camps etc open so I do think some parents are taking the piss re childcare now and are choosing not to pay for it to try and juggle. I could understand prioritising leave in the school holidays for those who are really struggling but not as a blanket parent v non-parent policy. I’d also say most people I know without children don’t want leave during the school holidays and would rather take June or September so in practice, is it that much of an issue that they can’t offer those who do want it some flex to take annual leave?

Hmm, after your last update I think that you’ve both articulated your positions pretty politely and clearly. I initially absolutely agreed with you, now I think that the whole situation is shit.

I think you’ve both handled the disagreement with maturity and maybe she’s a better friend than it might appear. I suspect she would feel a bit differently if she knew your childlessness was not by choice. I think she might also have been kinder.

That update doesn't really make her seem any better does it?

1. Parents and children have not been the most vulnerable people during this pandemic. If you were to argue the point, a childless person with health issues or who is a carer for older / ill family members were much more vulnerable.

1. She hasn't said sorry or changed her thinking at all - she thinks being a parent makes her more important and more worthy of rest.

1. She isn't a team player and if I worked with her I'd be very annoyed at the idea I should "take one for the team" by working while parents were furloughed then take "another for the team" by putting off my leave and doing extra work to cover for parents during school holidays.

At what point do parents "take one for the team" I wonder?

1. She has no idea the other factors at play for people who are not parents. For example parents with older children / children who sleep well / with good childcare arrangements are not going to be as tired as a person with no children but responsibilities to family, their own personal stresses / illness and a full time job.

Is she really saying she's more tired and in need of rest that the nurses / doctors etc who have worked more than FT during this?

Something else people like her never think about is teachers / people who work term time.
I have no children but am married to a teacher and we have both worked full time aside from the first month of the pandemic.
If I can't have any leave during school holidays when parents apparently need it more, I will never have time off with my husband.

I also don't agree about needing to tell her you are not childless by choice, as if her sympathy is going to help.
The end result is the same, whether you have fertility issues or just don't want children, your friend feels her life and time should be prioritised over yours because she decided to / was lucky enough become a mother.

I think your friend is very self centred and again, I'd say there is no coming back from this.

I would say that I have sympathy with both of your positions. Working with small children was dangerous and horrendous and I know so many people who had near misses and were close to breakdowns. That experience just wasn’t comparable to people without caring responsibilities.

I think one thing to realise from all this is that although Covid has affected pretty much everyone in some way, it hasn't been the same experience for everyone. So when you say 'not comparable' that does not mean that people without caring responsibilities have had it easier. It's been a different kind of stress.

When I finish a 12 hour night shift and then go on to do my day job, I can get pretty pissed off with people whinging about cleaning out their kitchen cupboards again. But I have to remind myself that they have had a different experience and that I'm not seeing all of it. They may be desperately missing seeing young grandchildren or stressed because they cannot visit elderly relatives. Who's to say what's better or worse? It's been tough for most of us.

But at the end of a gruelling year, it really does take the biscuit to then be told that your efforts don't matter and that somehow you don't understand the tiredness and stress of having children. Yes, well. Walk a mile in my shoes and then see how you feel.

I do agree with her about having children being a contribution to society - without a healthy and educated new generation, childless people would be screwed when they reach old age with no younger taxpayers, doctors, emergency services, scientists etc

Lol at this because obviously no person without children pays tax which funds schools, the NHS, benefits etc

Wow, i would write something to clear the air slightly so that you can walk away from this friendship with yr head held high.

YANBU. Your friend was being thoughtless and entitled. She sounds self-absorbed and unable to grasp that life for others may be more complicated than she assumes. Time for her to learn the world doesn't revolve around her.

Burn out, which i have had, is horrendous. Depression is horrendous. Insomnia is horrendous. With or without children. So the parents might want to have a little think and come up with less self-centered tosh and have some consideration for all employees.

Yes, this. Some of the most exhausted, depressed, burnt out patients I'm seeing at the moment are single, childless people who were expected to, and did without complaining, work constantly during the pandemic to make life easier for parents.

Some of those I've signed off on long term sick because they are on the verge of serious mental and/or physical illnesses.

I'm all for empathy, but it seems that some people, some parents, expect the empathy to go all one way - towards them.

Exactly @SecretSpAD

Childless people still have to pay towards other people's maternity and postnatal care, maternity pay/parental leave (where a portion is government funded), child benefit, nursery (e.g. government funded hours for ages 2 and over), primary and secondary schools, health services for children, children's libraries, upkeep of local playgrounds, BBC children's programmes if a TV license payer, council-run children's sport facilities and much more.

Most people don't begrudge this at all, but to be told that childless people 'don't contribute' is completely wrong. The childless person may find themselves excluded from friendship groups, trying to save for one last round of invasive IVF which may or may not work, depressed and sad yet constantly expected to be the 'jolly auntie', etc. To then be told openly they are less worthy than others is a kick in the teeth.

Many people finding themselves childless not by choice would give anything to swap places with someone juggling a busy family and work life. How many busy parents would (unfunny jokes aside) prefer to give up their families and be permanently unable to have any children?

I've just read the latest update and still think she's completely deluded.

In what universe are parents and children the most vulnerable? She sounds so precious and totally self absorbed.

After the update she sounds far worse. In a Team everyone does their bit to help each other. Many without children or family had to spend a lot of the pandemic alone, where is the recompense for that? Parents and children suffered but so did many other groups of people.

She has basically said she doesn’t really care about your health and well-being and you are a friend! To me that is disgraceful and I expect better regard from my friends.

Also I’d say your children don’t grow up into healthy tax payers then was all your work in raising them worthless? Seems highly transactional to me. Should those with brighter or healthier children get more from society as their children may deliver more?

If the argument has made you realise you no longer value the relationship more than being in the right, then don't apologise and let the friendship end.

But @CaptainBarbossa this isn't really about being definitively "right" or "wrong."

This is about a friend showing absolutely no empathy for the OP , who has worked over the odds in difficult conditions, was offered an incentive only to have that incentive (her legally earned annual leave) taken away.

And the so-called friend then articulated some pretty demeaning and dehumanising opinions about childless women, which basically showed the OP that her "friend" has little respect or value for her, because she is childless.

This isn't about right or wrong - this is about having some bloody empathy.

Your work policy is unfair and piss taking.
Your friend's attitude is superior and patronising and whilst I am a parent myself I don't agree with it at all. I probably wouldn't want to continue the friendship as your friend seems less than supportive towards you.

I'm not surprised you felt annoyed about the conversation as your friend's attitude stinks.

What a complete idiot she is. Children are the LEAST vulnerable to Covid, not the most. I could not be friends with someone so selfish, entitled and downright idiotic.

BertramLacey It really is hard to compare experiences as so many people will have seen things differently.

I had two different employers during lockdown. The first, I had flex as a parent but my workload didn’t change. So I generally did 5am- midnight while combining childcare, homeschooling and work and it was bad. Second job was a key worker with childcare in place and much more manageable despite being in a more stressful/critical role.

I remember snapping at someone in the pta because they wanted to do a celebration of lockdown and the extra time everyone had to appreciate the local area and do activities. I was like err some people have died, some people have been working themselves into the ground, some people have been financially screwed. I’m sure there are some people who has a wonderful time on furlough too but she hasn’t really considered the fact that her lovely experience wasn’t universal.