Mandatory Covid jabs for health workers

[WinnieSmith]

"Govt ‘absolutely thinking’ about mandatory Covid jabs for health workers, UK vaccine minister says"

www.rt.com/uk/525218-govt-thinking-mandatory-jabs-healthcare/

Should Covid jabs be mandatory for healthcare workers?

IABU - yes
IANBU - no

should be engaging and encouraging, rather than forcing. We run the risk of alienating staff and losing them, at a time when we can ill afford it.

Bad care (whether unsafe unvaccinated employee or poor attitude or lack of training) is often worse than no care.

We have been encouraging and engaging. We can't cajole and appease and tiptoe around forever. Particularly if we have another wave and it contributes towards many avoidable deaths.

I mean, I'm happy if the government and employers want to take a leaf from the US, Israel, and some other countries in offering incentives like free beer, meals, or lottery tickets with vaccines, but if we still have many unvaccinated staff 'caring' for the vulnerable, we need to do something more.

It's not unusual for conditions of employment to change after new legislation. It happens in many industries.

Somebody working with the vulnerable who refuses to protect those vulnerable people is in the wrong job.

Again, unsafe care (not just vaccine issues) is no better - and often worse than no care.

@Parker231

My friend has cancer. Medically advised not to have the vaccine. She should not have to worry at her hospital appointments that she is at risk from those caring for her and giving her treatment.

^^ This.

I'm so sorry for your friend
She absolutely shouldn't have to worry about that. Vulnerable patients going to hospital have a justifiable expectation of safe care.

Hospitals and residential homes should be places of safety.

Again, unsafe care (not just vaccine issues) is no better - and often worse than no care.

Are you seriously saying that if a patient was severely ill and needed treatment or could otherwise die - not receiving that care and being left to perish is preferable to receiving treatment from a non-vaccinated doctor?

Also, sometimes the problem is being too hesitant (government and employers). Obviously this isn't always the case, not by any means, but sometimes just sometimes it's being too soft that is actually the problem.

Just like children need firm boundaries instead of parents being their best friends, so sometimes do employees.

Give much leeway and people take advantage. It's not always consciously, but when people are presented with no questions asked, no room for argument conditions, they generally accept them far more readily than when an employer goes to them begging and saying pretty please. Pandering can backfire.

People don't respect lack of authority to that extent.

@ThornAmongstRoses

Again, unsafe care (not just vaccine issues) is no better - and often worse than no care.

Are you seriously saying that if a patient was severely ill and needed treatment or could otherwise die - not receiving that care and being left to perish is preferable to receiving treatment from a non-vaccinated doctor?

I have witnessed a friend receive so-called care in a hospital. It was appalling and traumatic (for him and his family). Worse still for the other patients on the ward who didn't have family around to speak up for them. One was left in terrible pain and ended up needing an emergency operation. We didn't find out if he survived. My friend (and his fellow patients) didn't get the care needed but additionally suffered fear and distress because of the poor 'care'.

Being in hospital seriously unwell is a frightening experience. When the 'care' is bad, even more so.

Yes sometimes no care is better than unsafe care.

Yes.

Being in hospital seriously unwell is a frightening experience. When the 'care' is bad, even more so. Yes sometimes no care is better than unsafe care

I’m sorry that happened to your friend, but that’s not the point I’m making.

My point was that it was being implied that it is preferable for a person to receive no care than be cared for by an unvaccinated nurse/doctor.

I just can’t imagine any scenario where a seriously ill patient would rather choose to severely deteriorate and have no treatment and suffer the consequences of that, than be saved by a competent medical member of staff but who isn’t vaccinated.

I absolutely think that healthcare workers should have their vaccine.

But I oppose there being legislation to force this. The right of body autonomy still applies, I have the right to choose which medical interventions I have. The NHS doesn't own me.

tea light this is the point, there hasn't been enough encouragement to take the vaccine. There have no incentives offered whatsoever where I work. Canteen vouchers, extra annual leave would be something.

I find it somewhat hard to swallow that some people are jumping on the mandatory vaccination bandwagon for 'safety', when so many were happy for us to work without adequate PPE, or mental health care, during the height of the pandemic.

The HCP workforce needs to be looked after in order to provide safe care. Many are dealing with PTSD now as a result of the pandemic, and further alienating an already exhausted workforce is bad for patient care, as they won't be able to provide good quality, or will leave due to burn out, or work elsewhere with better pay and conditions.

Yes it absolutely should mandatory. It's u acceptable to introduce that risk to those who are in hospital.

I just can’t imagine any scenario where a seriously ill patient would rather choose to severely deteriorate and have no treatment and suffer the consequences of that, than be saved by a competent medical member of staff but who isn’t vaccinated.I just can’t imagine any scenario where a seriously ill patient would rather choose to severely deteriorate and have no treatment and suffer the consequences of that, than be saved by a competent medical member of staff but who isn’t vaccinated

That is very unlikely to be the choice

But if you were having your immune system deleted for a bone marrow transplant, then you would want every risk mitigated. Ditto other chemo

That is very unlikely to be the choice

That’s why I’m hoping the poster will come and give me some specific examples where a patient completely going without treatment and suffering the consequences of that, is preferable to them receiving the treatment they need but from an unvaccinated doctor.

I do wonder how the posters calling for mandatory vaccines for healthcare workers would feel if they were told they had to have it or lose their job? The vaccine protects the recipient from getting poorly so if they can’t/won’t have it surely it would be them who is ultimately affected?

@GettingAwayWithIt

I do wonder how the posters calling for mandatory vaccines for healthcare workers would feel if they were told they had to have it or lose their job? The vaccine protects the recipient from getting poorly so if they can’t/won’t have it surely it would be them who is ultimately affected?

Mandatory vaccines for healthcare workers have existed for years. If Covid vaccine becomes mandatory it will be one added to the list.

I have worked in the NHS for over 20 years (and needed evidence of vaccination for every job during this time) and I have never known a colleague complain they have to have the Hep b jab or a member of public be up in arms that it's a condition of the job.

It’s a good job there isn’t a crisis if lack of care workers. Those being the lowest paid in society in a demanding job now expected to sacrifice their bodily autonomy? I’m sure that’ll get more people rushing to work in care!

I do wonder how the posters calling for mandatory vaccines for healthcare workers would feel if they were told they had to have it or lose their job?

The following is probably comparing apples vs. oranges but I'll chuck this in anyway:

For many years now some UK employers, especially in some of the transport/travel related industries, have made vaccination against yellow fever mandatory for some roles.

Reason being because those roles potentially expose the employee to a (vanishingly low) risk of being exposed to the disease when on company business.

No jab = possibly no job, or at best your opportunities for employment within those companies could become restricted/limited.

@blublub

Those being the lowest paid in society in a demanding job now expected to sacrifice their bodily autonomy?

You know that many vaccinations are mandatory for people working in care already?

You know that many vaccinations are mandatory for people working in care already?

Ones that have been around for many, many, many, many years and known to be safe.

So not really comparable to making people have the Covid vaccine.

I do wonder how the posters calling for mandatory vaccines for healthcare workers would feel if they were told they had to have it or lose their job?

As many NHS roles already require vaccinations, there is no change to my feelings. Because it's also no change of policy

Reason being because those roles potentially expose the employee to a (vanishingly low) risk of being exposed to the disease when on company business.

That's a very good point.

As well as having a duty of care to their vulnerable patients and residents, hospitals and care homes also have the same responsibilities towards their employees.

It won't just be bereaved relatives taking legal action. We could see some workplace injury claims too - if/when staff are unnecessarily infected (and potentially killed or left disabled with Long Covid) by unvaccinated colleagues.

NerrSnerr

Which vaccines - other than Hep B- are already compulsory?

@Tealightsandd We dont know that Lisa Shaw died because of the vaccine but we dont know that it was Covid either as you suggested. You are using her for your argument as well

I can't get my head round the anti vaxxers who keep repeating the "still in trials" mantra even when it's repeatedly explained that it's not true.
Though personally I'd have it if it was in trials, and I did volunteer over a year ago to be part of the trials.

I'd be horrified to learn that a HCP treating highly vulnerable patients was unvaccinated.

@MercyBooth

Didn't we agree not to use her as an argument on either side?

Have you confused me with another poster Mercy?

I have and would never use a private individual's death in an attempt to push a narrative. I did reply to a poster who tried to use her for anti vaxx purposes - to point out that a) her family have asked people not to do this, and b) it is not yet known whether it was the vaccine.