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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Mandatory Covid jabs for health workers

318 replies

WinnieSmith · 30/05/2021 16:22

"Govt ‘absolutely thinking’ about mandatory Covid jabs for health workers, UK vaccine minister says"

www.rt.com/uk/525218-govt-thinking-mandatory-jabs-healthcare/

Should Covid jabs be mandatory for healthcare workers?

IABU - yes
IANBU - no

Mandatory Covid jabs for health workers
OP posts:
NameyNameyNameChangey · 31/05/2021 05:10

@Torvean

Most ppl who know no NHS nurses/Dr/ auxiliary nurses don't realise that there is already a mandatory vaccine.

So for those in the front line it should be mandatory. Whether that's hospitals or care homes.

Is there? For what?
MarieG10 · 31/05/2021 05:15

No not unreasonable.

It frightens me the imagination of complete nutters and conspiracy theorists in this country. A friend of mine has an extremely vulnerable daughter (over 18) who she has refused to allow to be vaccinated and a husband with a lung condition who would likely be dead if he caught it, but they are convinced of a state conspiracy.

But let them get on with it, but not in a healthcare setting. Make it mandatory like some other vaccinations for healthcare staff

kittykaty · 31/05/2021 07:12

Why only mandatory for healthcare workers though? Why are non-healthcare workers able to move around freely and unvaccinated? The unvaccinated can still infect vaccinated healthcare workers! Should be mandatory for everyone or no one!

JemimaJoy · 31/05/2021 07:14

No

RoseAndRose · 31/05/2021 07:18

@kittykaty

Why only mandatory for healthcare workers though? Why are non-healthcare workers able to move around freely and unvaccinated? The unvaccinated can still infect vaccinated healthcare workers! Should be mandatory for everyone or no one!
Because some patients are highly vulnerable.

That's why some immunisations are already mandatory for certain roles within NHS.

This isn't a new policy by any stretch

Dentistlakes · 31/05/2021 07:21

Yes, unless there’s a medical reason why not. I also think the standard childhood vaccines should be a condition of school attendance. It’s not just about protecting ourselves but also those who don’t have that luxury.

mamabali · 31/05/2021 07:58

I’m a healthcare worker who has had the vaccine, but not sure how I feel about imposing it on other healthcare workers against their wishes.

I have tried to find contra-indications to the vaccine and could find only allergies- which is rare. There is an issue about recommendations for children and pregnant women - however more data may come out, which shows it’s safe for these two groups too. It may then be considered a matter of choice to be vaccinated or not. Perhaps until then, people working in paediatrics will be more likely to get vaccinated due to this? I would like to think they would do so- but again feel uncomfortable about making it mandatory.

Where does individual responsibility lie? Where does societal responsibility lie? The unprotected groups could catch the virus anywhere- although will be potentially at their weakest during a hospital admission.

As for the clinically vulnerable who can have the vaccine- they need to take responsibility for their own health. Leaders (in the broadest sense) need to ensure they are provided with all the information they need to make that decision.

StarlightLady · 31/05/2021 08:02

The Yellow Fever vaccine is mandatory for GPs, so we are not on the new ground often cited here.

DinosaurDiana · 31/05/2021 08:04

I’m fairly sure Hep B is mandatory.

Iquitit · 31/05/2021 08:16

There's never been an expectation of vaccination in care homes, you could get them as a care worker, if you paid for them. It's only in recent years I've been offered a flu vaccine for example, but before that if you wanted it, you paid for it, because the NHS and care providers didn't see it worthy of spending money on.

It's never even been mentioned in the care jobs I've applied for, it has just not been a 'thing' for care staff as it is for nurses for example.

We have limited training around infection control, I am currently doing an industry standard qualification that was 'written' before covid (postponed due to the demands of work during the pandemic) and it's not even a module, so many care workers probably aren't even aware of any in depth associated risks (covid aside), so it's not a case of just adding another one for care workers, this is a whole new expectation, in a non professional, low paid and low status job, introduced overnight.

I'd support a Vaccination program for care workers, but not one that starts all of a sudden, with a very new vaccine, and only alongside other measures of infection control like proper equipment, adequate PPE - and outside of a pandemic too, and better training than a distance learning course once in a blue moon, I still haven't been offered any more infection control training since covid, other than a few more posters up around the building, surely that should be a priority?

We were given advice on how to use PPE correctly etc from the local council, once, since covid started, and when it started our stash of PPE was depleted within days, as much as gloves that thin they break putting them on, and I've seen thicker bin liners than the plastic pinnys we had, will protect anyone.

None of these things seem to be addressed, and just a frenzy of people slating care workers who haven't had the vaccine, after 18 months of being thrown to the wolves.

Scottishskifun · 31/05/2021 08:30

On one side I think it's silly to try and force people that don't wish to if their beliefs are so strong they will leave the profession.

But the flip side of that is that if working with patients who are ill and therefore immune system is already compromised you should do everything possible to protect patients.
Covid went like wildfire through our community hospital they actually closed it for weeks last year. It was from staff transmission initially.

NHS and incident management teams dealing with covid know that it circulates in hospital and with staff included.

Studies have shown the vaccine reduces chances of transmission but doesn't fully eliminate it. But surely anything that can protect patients is better than ignoring it?

There will of course still be medical exemptions. Providing correct information sources and up to date real life data should also be done so that people can reexamine if they initially refused.

Sunnyfreezesushi · 31/05/2021 08:38

I can see the rationale but would like to understand numbers of how many haven’t already had it first, there is already a big shortage of nurses, for example.

Also, if young healthcare workers have to have it then should it not be mandatory for those in eg GP Groups 6 and below and above a certain age too. I realise there is an enforceability issue (at most a fine would be possible). But morally speaking, why should a young healthy nurse who doesn’t want a vaccine have to have it to protect others who are refusing it? (Of course she would also be protecting those who have had it for whom it maybe didn’t work or those who can’t have it)

NumberTheory · 31/05/2021 09:31

@Iquitit

There's never been an expectation of vaccination in care homes, you could get them as a care worker, if you paid for them. It's only in recent years I've been offered a flu vaccine for example, but before that if you wanted it, you paid for it, because the NHS and care providers didn't see it worthy of spending money on.

It's never even been mentioned in the care jobs I've applied for, it has just not been a 'thing' for care staff as it is for nurses for example.

We have limited training around infection control, I am currently doing an industry standard qualification that was 'written' before covid (postponed due to the demands of work during the pandemic) and it's not even a module, so many care workers probably aren't even aware of any in depth associated risks (covid aside), so it's not a case of just adding another one for care workers, this is a whole new expectation, in a non professional, low paid and low status job, introduced overnight.

I'd support a Vaccination program for care workers, but not one that starts all of a sudden, with a very new vaccine, and only alongside other measures of infection control like proper equipment, adequate PPE - and outside of a pandemic too, and better training than a distance learning course once in a blue moon, I still haven't been offered any more infection control training since covid, other than a few more posters up around the building, surely that should be a priority?

We were given advice on how to use PPE correctly etc from the local council, once, since covid started, and when it started our stash of PPE was depleted within days, as much as gloves that thin they break putting them on, and I've seen thicker bin liners than the plastic pinnys we had, will protect anyone.

None of these things seem to be addressed, and just a frenzy of people slating care workers who haven't had the vaccine, after 18 months of being thrown to the wolves.

Good post.

I think your reminder of what the reality in care work has actually been should throw the push for mandatory vaccination into stark relief.

Plumbear2 · 31/05/2021 09:43

@chickenyhead

No.

Because..
A. The vaccine does not stop you catching or transmitting the virus.
B. I will fight for the right to choose, even though personally pro vaccine. It is a slippery slope to start making thing mandatory. Then I would be forced to join the looney marches.

The NHS and other areas also have the right to choose not to employ people who don't meet their criteria. Rights work both ways.
WinnieSmith · 31/05/2021 09:45

@MyrrAgain

Anti vaxers are selfish and if they don't wish to contribute to the safety of society they should fuck off and not benefit from being part of it.

Please don't conflate being cautious of this particular vaccine and being "anti vaxxer". You know full well they're different and this is a very quick and dirty way of insulting those who are cautious of this particular vaccine.

Please be respectful.

OP posts:
wherewildflowersgrow · 31/05/2021 09:48

I'll say it differently, then. Front line staff in contact with patients should be required to have the vaccine. 3/4 of the adult population has had it, so they're fussing about nothing. They should not get to infect patients in a pandemic situation, end of.

Heatherjayne1972 · 31/05/2021 09:59

There already is a mandatory vaccine for healthcare workers - in dentistry anyway
Hep b. No jab no job
the employers insurance is invalid without it - you’d last 5 mins on your first day if you refused this
I suspect it’ll be exactly the same with the jab for covid

CuriousaboutSamphire · 31/05/2021 10:11

www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-vaccine-monitoring-idUSKBN2AC2G3

OP could you have a read and see if you can work through your misunderstanding about the vaccines still being having trial status?

This has been said a lot, in many places, but probably isn't what most people understand by the term. Basically it is being used as a scare tactic by people who don't understand how new medicines come to the market, or don't care as long as they can get a good headline.

baldafrique · 31/05/2021 11:04

If you forced in post care home staff to all be vaccinated then surely loads would quit and the homes would be totally fucked? That surely doesnt help much? Its not like there are loads of people desperate to get into that line of work. It would be a disaster. As much as we all might like everyone to be vaccinated, forced vaccination in this sector will backfire spectacularly.

WinnieSmith · 31/05/2021 12:11

@CuriousaboutSamphire

I'm not debating the safety of the vaccine just that (unlike the vaccine for hep b for example it is still in stage 3 trials - pfizer themselves have said this).

Again, I'm not suggesting that it shouldn't be used, it just isn't as tested as (for example) the hep b vaccine.

edition.cnn.com/2021/04/01/health/pfizer-covid-vaccine-efficacy-six-months-bn/index.html

OP posts:
CuriousaboutSamphire · 31/05/2021 12:53

I don't think comparing it to decades old vaccines is helpful. It is a headline grabbing tactic used by lazy journalists who need to be held responsible for the repercussions of their laziness.

You only have to look at the utter shite still being spouted about AZ and clotting to see how dangerous this can be.

The truth about issues with vaccines would have been helpful, would have allowed people to make properly informed choices. But wouldn't have raised as much revenue as the half truths and disinformation has!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 31/05/2021 13:00

Oh, you keep saying 'stage 3 trials' without seemingly understanding what those extended trials actually are. As I said, it's a misunderstanding, promoted by lazy journalists, and doesn't mean what we, Joe Public, understand by the word 'trial'. The vaccine is as safe as is required by law for use. The ongoing monitoring and test studies refines and extends that knowledge.

www.gsk.com/en-gb/research-and-development/trials-in-people/clinical-trial-phases/

Given the likelihood of more pandemic viruses there may well be yet more trials too

www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01230-y

CuriousaboutSamphire · 31/05/2021 13:01

Damn. There should be a couple of links in there

www.gsk.com/en-gb/research-and-development/trials-in-people/clinical-trial-phases/

www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01230-y

WinnieSmith · 31/05/2021 13:36

@CuriousaboutSamphire

So there's no clotting risk with the AZ vaccine?

OP posts:
WinnieSmith · 31/05/2021 13:38

@CuriousaboutSamphire

So other vaccines are used in a widespread manner without going through phase 3 trials?

OP posts: