To ask: if you think it's OK that sex offenders get beaten up in prison, look at this

[Zzelda]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/man-beaten-lags-prison-after-22813580.amp?__twitter_impression=true

Too often we see people on here and elsewhere on social media expressing the hope that those convicted of sex-related offences will get attacked in prison. It's horrible under any circumstances: it's condoning criminal assault and even murder, and effectively it's giving carte blanche to violent men and women to commit serious assaults while we all merrily look the other way. It's bad enough when the person has been correctly convicted, but it's inevitable that innocent people will get caught up in it and get victimised. I hate those posts, they come over as so smug and thoughtless, and I wish MN would stamp down on them more.

@Wherediditgo

And TableFlowers you have a weird hang up over RedRose

I mean it is very odd how defensive you are being....

P.s. it was me that said there are unintelligent people on this thread. And guess what... I am only educated to GCSE level so you don’t need to take my opinion seriously anyway

Don’t worry, I won’t!

Absolute nonsense you talk

All the signal virtualing in the world won’t stop prisoners beating up paedophiles or killing them.

Which is virtue signalling though? You can make a case for it on both sides, it takes the discussion no further. As long as there's a culture that it's OK for a certain class of prisoner to be beaten up, the more violent prisoners will do it to boost their cred and power. Sure, nothing will stop this entirely, but people on here are effectively saying that they don't care if the prison authorities turn a blind eye to this. That's the start of an extremely slippery slope.

@osbertthesyrianhamster

Sympathy for sex offenders . . . my heart bleeds. YABU.

Where am I asking for sympathy for sex offenders? Do try reading the OP properly..

As has been pointed out, you don't have to feel the least sympathy for any single prison inmate to want to uphold the principle that condoning violence is wrong in any context.

@Zzelda

All the signal virtualing in the world won’t stop prisoners beating up paedophiles or killing them.

Which is virtue signalling though? You can make a case for it on both sides, it takes the discussion no further. As long as there's a culture that it's OK for a certain class of prisoner to be beaten up, the more violent prisoners will do it to boost their cred and power. Sure, nothing will stop this entirely, but people on here are effectively saying that they don't care if the prison authorities turn a blind eye to this. That's the start of an extremely slippery slope.

I agree.

I also think this debate largely comes down to where on the socialist/individualism spectrum you fall. Many, many people here (and in the real world) are seemingly individualistic in nature. They only see the problem affecting the prisoner and nobody else.

It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that a non-rehabilitated prisoner being released in the society will equal MORE victims, not fewer.

And then there is the cost to the tax payer at keeping each offender/repeat offender at her majesty’s leisure... rather than them becoming functioning members of society that could contribute.

I’m not saying all offenders can be rehabilitated, of course. There will be some that are so rotten to the core that they’re past help and should never be released.

The problem is here though that MOST prisoners DO get released AT SOME POINT. Do you want them to re-offend?

@Wherediditgo thank you so much 🙂

Most prisoners will be released at some point. Do we want them released as bitter, hateful individuals who have spent their time having the crap kicked out of them and spent time in an environment where they are required to be ‘tough’ or that violence is seen as a badge of honour?

Some people will argue that prisons should be as brutal and inhumane as possible so that no one wants to go back. In practice it only makes them more determined not to get caught next time.

@CounsellorTroi

Most prisoners will be released at some point. Do we want them released as bitter, hateful individuals who have spent their time having the crap kicked out of them and spent time in an environment where they are required to be ‘tough’ or that violence is seen as a badge of honour?

Some people will argue that prisons should be as brutal and inhumane as possible so that no one wants to go back. In practice it only makes them more determined not to get caught next time.

It’s a good point.

However, I’m not sure that works in practice.
I would imagine living in an unsafe and intimidating, stressful environment for a number of years is more likely to cause psychological damage to the point where you’re always ‘on’ - perhaps it may even trigger some form of PTSD.

Again - no sympathy for the individual here but rather isn’t that person more likely to become volatile and unstable and therefore repeatedly offend?

People rarely consider the implications of being caught. They think about the likelihood of it instead. This is particularly true of young male offenders.

@MadamBatty

Violent women? Can you point me to any cases?

Assuming that most of the posters on this thread are women, there seem to be an awful lot of violence supporters among them.

Would be a different thread if any of these paedophiles had got their hands on mumsnetters kids, don’t you think?

It must be lovely to be so pure of thought but if you actually saw what some of these people do to tiny innocent children you would probably be the first in the queue to beat them.

If people read the thread they'd realise that people who have actually been abused have posted their opinions, supporting both sides of the argument. Myself included. Funny thing, we're individuals with our own ideas and opinions, not some kind of hive mind.

Assuming that most of the posters on this thread are women, there seem to be an awful lot of violence supporters among them

Ot perhaps they don’t feel sorry for the monsters, but instead, sympathise with the children that are abused by such monsters!!!

No one forced them to vomit the crimes did they, they do it through choice!

commit

You can irrefutably abhor the actions of another human without ever wanting to resort to violence you know.

My opinions are totally centred around wanting them to stop re-offending so that there are fewer victims.... not out of sympathy for the criminal.

In most of western world, for most prison is far from the "holiday" camp environment that some people think, and the media sometimes suggests.

Working in legal system, and having being involved with many cases and investigations, I do have a perspective on sex crimes. In my 25+ years, the people convicted are a small minority. Those convicted are often on a headline charge, but they are frequently strongly suspected of multiple additional offenses (there is a often an escalation of behavior resulting in rape). Basically they've done a lot to get there, most of which is never mentioned in the court room. As @TableFlowerss suggests, the vast majority of the crimes are premediated and planned (when, where, what, it's a script and they have a modus operandi).

I fully agree with the societal desire for rehabilitation, but the reality is it is not currently effective.

I fully agree with the societal desire for rehabilitation, but the reality is it is not currently effective

Many sex offenders have suffered horrendous abuse themselves as children.

Might it be better to try and intervene in their lives at a far earlier age? and prevent them going on to abuse others?

Its all a bit too late when they reach prison.

@jasjas1973

I fully agree with the societal desire for rehabilitation, but the reality is it is not currently effective

Many sex offenders have suffered horrendous abuse themselves as children.

Might it be better to try and intervene in their lives at a far earlier age? and prevent them going on to abuse others?

Its all a bit too late when they reach prison.

It's not quite that straightforward, as I understand it the link is not clear outside of child-on-child sexual abuse where the child is often re-enacting what was done to them.

But there are things that are known to reduce re-offending that many people don't like because their desire to make offenders suffer is apparently more important. Social isolation, for example, increases the risk, but there are many people who think that's what they deserve regardless of the consequences.

I'm against the death penalty. I've read on other threads that there are so many people accessing images of child abuse online that there are not enough prison places for them - presumably capacity in the courts would be an issue as well. Add in all those who have directly abused children as well. The vast, vast majority of these people are never going to be imprisoned at all, very few will be imprisoned for any significant length of time. They will be living in our communities. If, for example, befriending schemes work I don't give a fuck if some people think it's too cushy, I care that it means less children feel like I felt.

If you don't want prisoners to lay hands on you, keep your own bloody hands to yourself in the first place.

@jasjas1973

I fully agree with the societal desire for rehabilitation, but the reality is it is not currently effective

Many sex offenders have suffered horrendous abuse themselves as children.

Might it be better to try and intervene in their lives at a far earlier age? and prevent them going on to abuse others?

Its all a bit too late when they reach prison.

Ok, well think about this.... Some people on here have suggested that they should feel safe in prison as this is their punishment and that two wrongs don’t make a right, ie an inmate beating up a sex offender of children.

If then, as a society, we agree that two wrongs don’t make a right, then why is that completely forgotten when it comes to --excuses-- reasons why offenders go on to commit horrific crimes.

It’s soon forgotten then isn’t it!! Millions of people have shit childhoods but they go on to do better. Yes some of them are abused as kids and that’s absolutely horrific, but it’s absolutely not a justification for them to go on to do it to someone else.

@bythebanksof

In most of western world, for most prison is far from the "holiday" camp environment that some people think, and the media sometimes suggests.

Working in legal system, and having being involved with many cases and investigations, I do have a perspective on sex crimes. In my 25+ years, the people convicted are a small minority. Those convicted are often on a headline charge, but they are frequently strongly suspected of multiple additional offenses (there is a often an escalation of behavior resulting in rape). Basically they've done a lot to get there, most of which is never mentioned in the court room. As @TableFlowerss suggests, the vast majority of the crimes are premediated and planned (when, where, what, it's a script and they have a modus operandi).

I fully agree with the societal desire for rehabilitation, but the reality is it is not currently effective.

This this and this some more.

I'm against the death penalty. I've read on other threads that there are so many people accessing images of child abuse online that there are not enough prison places for them - presumably capacity in the courts would be an issue as well. Add in all those who have directly abused children as well. The vast, vast majority of these people are never going to be imprisoned at all, very few will be imprisoned for any significant length of time. They will be living in our communities. If, for example, befriending schemes work I don't give a fuck if some people think it's too cushy, I care that it means less children feel like I felt

If only it were that simple. If only it was due to feeling a bit left out of mainstream society and a few friends would make all the difference...

They won’t all be loners. That’s more the stereotype I would imagine. Many of them will be successful, they’re everywhere by the sounds of it.

@TableFlowerss

The point i m trying to make is not to excuse behaviour (personally, i think adult child sex offenders are untreatable and should be in prison for the rest of their lives)

It is to say that early intervention in horrific childhoods should be the norm and not keep kids in these environments, which is what happens as we don't have enough social workers or safe homes to put these kids in.

My DD worked in a medium level MH unit, its fucking horrific, a merry-go round of offence, prison MH unit, release, offend, prison etc etc etc.
the commonality is horrific childhoods.

@GrolliffetheDragon you are right. Perhaps some of the more excitable posters on this thread should have a look at the statistics around Circles of Support and Accountability.

They won’t all be loners. That’s more the stereotype I would imagine. Many of them will be successful, they’re everywhere by the sounds of it.

No, and I never said there was one solution that would work for everyone. But social isolation is known to increase the risk of re-offending.

Millions of people have shit childhoods but they go on to do better. Yes some of them are abused as kids and that’s absolutely horrific, but it’s absolutely not a justification for them to go on to do it to someone else.

Prisons are full of people with mental health problems, learning disabilities, who have been in care, who have multiple ACEs.

It's true, not everyone with a shitty start to life ends up in prison/on drugs/with mental health problems/self harming/whatever, but it's known to increase the risk of a range of negative outcomes and pretending it doesn't helps no-one.

[quote jasjas1973]@TableFlowerss

The point i m trying to make is not to excuse behaviour (personally, i think adult child sex offenders are untreatable and should be in prison for the rest of their lives)

It is to say that early intervention in horrific childhoods should be the norm and not keep kids in these environments, which is what happens as we don't have enough social workers or safe homes to put these kids in.

My DD worked in a medium level MH unit, its fucking horrific, a merry-go round of offence, prison MH unit, release, offend, prison etc etc etc.
the commonality is horrific childhoods.[/quote]
You’re not wrong, but no one knows what goes on behind closed doors, unless it’s overtly obvious. Social workers can’t win, if they remove children they’re wrong, if they don’t, they’re wrong. As you say, there aren’t enough of them so only those known to them will have intervention