To feel I'm not responsible for my disabled child's conduct at nursery?

[Hannah941]

My pre school age old child is autistic (diagnosed) and strongly fits the PDA profile, thus he has associated challenging behavioural. He has an EHCP and is currently in an early years setting that claims to know about and understand SN children.

As per most children on the spectrum his behaviour can be very challenging. After consulting with an ed psych, paediatrican and numerous SALT therapists we are following their suggestions and implementing reccomended strategies at home. He has made good progress in a year but he'll always be autistic and have difficulties with emotional regulation and conduct. He has been known to hit and push other children. I get that's it's not acceptable but he's not the only child there who does this.

His EHCP specifically outlines this as a primary challenge he has and so 1-1 is needed (and required by law now) most of the time.

The problem I'm facing at the moment is when I go to pick him up from his setting I'm being berated for the way he behaves and told I need to improve his behaviour, for example throwing things and him throwing himself on the floor is problematic for them.

There's nothing I can do at home that I'm not already doing and yes it's incredibly challenging sometimes. Of course it is. I'm on my knees with it sometimes.

They knew about all of this before I enrolled him. I explained exactly what problems we have and I chose this place specifically because they claim to have extensive knowledge about SN children and DS wouldn't cope in mainstream.

Today when I collected him she was going off on a tangent about how his behaviour needs to improve and how despite being predominantly non verbal he does understand what he's doing.

She wouldn't let me get a word in edgeways, i was spoken over when I tried to explain that 'standard' techniques just don't work for DS bevause he fits the PDA profile.

I asked her if she knew anything about PDA and she didn't, she asked me to send her some links

I left the building feeling stressed and upset, like I'd just been told off.

I don't feel as though I'm directly responsible for his struggles and conduct when he's there as I'm already doing everything I should be, and then some. He's disabled for gods sake.

AIBU?

Does he have one to one at nursery? If so, the staff should be able to manage his behaviour, maybe by doing an activity with him, either away from other children or in a very small group of three or four, where they can supervise closely.

Just to add, I have been on the verge of removing him but there is nothing else locally that would be able to meet his needs. His paediatrican has strongly advised against withdrawing him from any placement completely for the next year because he needs to be prepped for school (he's going to be going to a specialist school)

I'm at my wits end.

I'm on the fence a bit with this one. I also have an autistic child with ADHD and who had also had less than desirable behaviour at school. On the one hand, I DO feel responsible, because he's my child and at the end of the day, the buck stops with me.

That said though, he has a 1:1 now as well, and if the school told me he was repeatedly hitting other children etc, I'd definitely question the efficacy of the 1:1. That's part of the reason they're there, to keep both your child and the other children safe.

@Lovelanguedoc

Does he have one to one at nursery? If so, the staff should be able to manage his behaviour, maybe by doing an activity with him, either away from other children or in a very small group of three or four, where they can supervise closely.

He didn't have a one to one until his EHCP was granted, he now has somebody with him %90 of the time in accordance to the plan.

Somehow these things are still happening.

They're clearly short staffed and It feels to me like they can't manage his level of disability despite assuring me (and the local authority) that they can.

Hey, have you spoken to the Local Authority SEN team who manage his EHCP to see if there is any support or guidance they can offer the nursery. When is his next EHCP review due? What is his 1-1 doing at the times they are struggling to manage his behaviour?

Not every area has this, but ours has an early years specific SEN team who can observe nursery settings and give practical advice.

I'd take him out. They clearly can't meet his needs, either find a placement that can or just keep him home. We went through the same with my dd and things didn't improve, I really regret putting her and myself through that.

@SnoozyBoozy

I'm on the fence a bit with this one. I also have an autistic child with ADHD and who had also had less than desirable behaviour at school. On the one hand, I DO feel responsible, because he's my child and at the end of the day, the buck stops with me.

That said though, he has a 1:1 now as well, and if the school told me he was repeatedly hitting other children etc, I'd definitely question the efficacy of the 1:1. That's part of the reason they're there, to keep both your child and the other children safe.

I totally get where you're coming from.

I do feel responsible for him as his parent, it was a bit daft of me to word it the way I did.

What I meant was, there's nothing I can do personally about his conduct at nursery, because I'm doing everything I should he doing at home.

It's their job to keep him and the other children safe whilst they're there after all.

Don't get me wrong it's not a one way street, DS came home yesterday with scratches after being hurt by another child so it's not as though he's the only child there that exhibits such behaviour.

Would any of the specialists be able to contact the nursery to discuss strategies? I'm an SLT and often do so for children on my caseload. Is there anything in his EHCP about staff training? I would try to push back a bit on to them e.g. 'are you implementing the strategies in his EHCP?'

It sounds tough and like you are doing a great job. Try not to remove him for the reasons you say and you need a break.

I’m so sorry you’re having to deal with this. They need to find tactics to help them deal with your son’s challenging behaviour and it sounds like you were trying to help them earlier and this woman wasn’t prepared to listen which makes me think they’re not after a solution as such but playing the blame game.

When does your son start his special school? How long left at nursery? If it’s any consolation in my experience (my son has attended 2) things will improve there as the staff will actually want to be proactive.

My Child is elevan now but he has Severe autism and learning disabilities, he went to s special school at four,his mainstream nursery were much the same unfortunately 🙄do you have an independent advisory service in your area who might be able to advice and come to meetings with you and Nursery ?

It sounds like they nodded at the right times when you spoke to them prior to enrolling him, but actually, they aren’t equipped to deal with him. I would make a list of your points and ask to speak with the manager and ensure that his needs statement can be met.

@GalaxyGirl24

Hey, have you spoken to the Local Authority SEN team who manage his EHCP to see if there is any support or guidance they can offer the nursery. When is his next EHCP review due? What is his 1-1 doing at the times they are struggling to manage his behaviour?

Not every area has this, but ours has an early years specific SEN team who can observe nursery settings and give practical advice.

His EHCP was only granted two weeks ago but I do plan to call his caseworker and share my concerns.

The nursery liase regularly with a service called 'Drumbeat outreach' who are there to provide support and guidance to early years settings looking after disabled children.

No idea what his 1-1 is doing at the point of these things happening. I would love to know that myself.

They're clearly short staffed and It feels to me like they can't manage his level of disability despite assuring me (and the local authority) that they can.
If they are short staffed, I really wonder if he is actually getting one to one.
I too would take him out and keep him at home if you can't find another suitable place.
If he is going to a specialist school, then he doesn't need prepping for school in the same way as other children. Once he is in his school, the staff will be more able to give the support he needs. Good luck.

@BendingSpoons

Would any of the specialists be able to contact the nursery to discuss strategies? I'm an SLT and often do so for children on my caseload. Is there anything in his EHCP about staff training? I would try to push back a bit on to them e.g. 'are you implementing the strategies in his EHCP?'

It sounds tough and like you are doing a great job. Try not to remove him for the reasons you say and you need a break.

SALT and ed psych have already given them good strategies to implement when DS is there, we know this because we were part of the video call where it was all outlined and suggested.

So still, despite that, they are having problems and resorting to passing the buck to me.

Have you shared with them the strategies you've put in place at home under advisement of professionals so they can follow them? When they berate you do you question them on if they're following these?

He's due to start school next year, he's 3.4 at the moment.

He will be going to a specialist school who cater solely to autistic children. They're incredible so I hear, the drumbeat outreach who liase with local early years settings are actually a part of this school.

We do have an independent advisory service locally and I plan to call them tomorrow. I got their details today.

I'm sorry some PP's have experienced similar. It's such a headache and worry isn't it.

Yes I'm also inclined to wonder whether he is getting his full 1-1 given that they're short staffed.

There are 4 members of staff in total including the manager, overseeing 14-15 special needs children, but not all 4 staff members are there every day.

Perhaps you need to keep asking

"Where was his 1 to 1 when this happened?"

"Does his 1 to 1 need more training to deal with DS specific issues?"

"Does his 1 to 1 need to discuss the strategies with Ed psych as they work at home?"

It sounds very much that the 1 to 1 isn't being used to help your DS and I would use those sort of questions to highlight you damn well know it

They are using your sons 1-1 to look after other children. This shouldn’t be happening.

OP you are right- you are not responsible for your child’s behaviour whilst he is at nursery- how can you be? You are literally not there. As you say, they took your child on knowing the full extent of his needs, so it is up to them to come up with ways of managing him whilst he is with them. Of course they can give you feedback and make suggestions- but they should be coming to you with constructive solutions, not gripes and criticisms. Making you feel terrible because they are ineffectual is not right. Whilst you are not there they have responsibility for managing your child’s behaviour, no matter how challenging.

I'd be tempted to start by responding every time they tell you of something 'why did the 1-1 let that happen?'.
Either the 1-1 won't have been there (which clearly puts the onus back on them) or you can say, I'm sorry, but if the 1-1 couldn't stop it, what do you expect me to do when I wasn't even there.

I think your paediatrician is wrong, you can’t ‘prep’ a child for school when they are not getting the support they need - instead your child will be getting used to throwing and hitting things, and the behaviour will be even harder to manage later.

I have a child with PDA and for us he couldn’t start even special school until age 5, and even then half a day. I would strongly urge you to find a childminder or specialist minder that absolutely does ‘get’ your child - which is not easy I grant you. I don’t want to worry you but many children with a strong PDA profile can become school refusers and for me it is vital to get good placements so that they have a good experience of school. It is tough. I’ve had to give up work and my career on hold.

If you absolutely cannot give up the nursery, then I think you need to be on their case every single day. See their ‘talks’ with you as an opportunity. You will need to be their ‘teacher’ and the most important thing is to get them into a position where they are preventing these incidents in the first place. Comments such as ‘he knows what he’s doing etc’ are just totally wrong. There are always triggers - so quiz them on that. What happened just before the hitting? If he’s PDA than demands such as ‘stop doing that’ or ‘do that’ are likely to be triggers. They need to SAY less and provide a better environment, which is usually one with way less demands. I’d ask for a breakdown of what he does every single day, and ask when the challenging behaviour occurs.

It just sounds like the nursery has not got the expertise and staffing levels to deal with your DC. And its cheeky if your DS isnt getting the 1 to 1 he is dntitled to.

@EverdeRose

Have you shared with them the strategies you've put in place at home under advisement of professionals so they can follow them? When they berate you do you question them on if they're following these?

I have yes.

I've reminded them of the suggestions and strategies outlined by the ed psych and SALT.

They claim to be doing everything suggested IE

Using ear defenders to help his sensory overload
'now and next board'
Sand timers
Movement breaks (which they don't like facilitating because it's disruptive to the other kids apparently)
Not paying attention to some negative behaviours (unless they're dangerous)

So despite doing all of those things they're still having problems, but the problems they're having are a direct result of his disabilities - IE lashing out when overwhelmed / when a child enters his personal space and tries to take a toy.

He may always have those struggles sadly and I don't like it any more than they do. I hate the thought of him throwing himself on the floor or hitting another child.

They don’t have enough staff at all. What a stressful environment for all involved.

I think you need to challenge them. They cannot say they are equipped to handle your sons situation (presumably to get money??) and then let him and you down like this.

Ridiculous, there is absolutely nothing you can do about his behaviour in nursery. His behaviour at home wouldn't even necessarily be the same as at nursery as he might cope much better at one setting than the other - there aren't 15 other children at home for example, or he might cope much better with the structure and routine at nursery.

I think you need to ask them if they can get their staff some training to deal with his particular needs. I think you also need to tell them everything you know about how to handle his behaviour and what works/what doesn't. I think they may have been a little naive taking him on and are now struggling to cope. Does the SEN school not have a nursery itself he could attend?