To feel I'm not responsible for my disabled child's conduct at nursery?

[Hannah941]

My pre school age old child is autistic (diagnosed) and strongly fits the PDA profile, thus he has associated challenging behavioural. He has an EHCP and is currently in an early years setting that claims to know about and understand SN children.

As per most children on the spectrum his behaviour can be very challenging. After consulting with an ed psych, paediatrican and numerous SALT therapists we are following their suggestions and implementing reccomended strategies at home. He has made good progress in a year but he'll always be autistic and have difficulties with emotional regulation and conduct. He has been known to hit and push other children. I get that's it's not acceptable but he's not the only child there who does this.

His EHCP specifically outlines this as a primary challenge he has and so 1-1 is needed (and required by law now) most of the time.

The problem I'm facing at the moment is when I go to pick him up from his setting I'm being berated for the way he behaves and told I need to improve his behaviour, for example throwing things and him throwing himself on the floor is problematic for them.

There's nothing I can do at home that I'm not already doing and yes it's incredibly challenging sometimes. Of course it is. I'm on my knees with it sometimes.

They knew about all of this before I enrolled him. I explained exactly what problems we have and I chose this place specifically because they claim to have extensive knowledge about SN children and DS wouldn't cope in mainstream.

Today when I collected him she was going off on a tangent about how his behaviour needs to improve and how despite being predominantly non verbal he does understand what he's doing.

She wouldn't let me get a word in edgeways, i was spoken over when I tried to explain that 'standard' techniques just don't work for DS bevause he fits the PDA profile.

I asked her if she knew anything about PDA and she didn't, she asked me to send her some links

I left the building feeling stressed and upset, like I'd just been told off.

I don't feel as though I'm directly responsible for his struggles and conduct when he's there as I'm already doing everything I should be, and then some. He's disabled for gods sake.

AIBU?

@Pomtastic

OP, I think I'm in the vague same location as we've also worked with Drumbeat (who were amazing!)

Does the nursery begin with B? If so, I've heard mixed reports of them, and their failed Ofsted report is very enlightening reading.

I can massively recommend joining a parent support group called Signal, if you're in the borough beginning with L - they are both incredibly knowledgeable with these situations, and supportive too.

Best of luck x

Hello :)

Yes to all of your questions. It's nice to see a local SN parent on here and I'm so pleased to hear you've had such a good experience with drumbeat. I have my heart set on DS going to their school next year. EHCP caseworker is supportive and thinks it'll be great for him. Fingers crossed!

I will definitely look up Signal in a mo

I am a parent to a now adult DC with ASD and sadly I think you have to learn the technique of smile and nod (and do what you were doing anyway).

IME you will have years of this ahead of you. My DC went to a special school and I still had this. "Ms Boanariensis DC hit child Y" "Ms Boanariensis DC would not settle to lessons today" and repeat ad infinitum. There is no point engaging (and those who say pull your DC out of nursery - do you have any idea how hard it is to find a nursery which will even take a child with additional needs?). You have to grow a thick skin, smile and nod and say "oh dear, and what is your strategy for dealing with that? Thank you so much." Keep pushing it back to them. You are absolutely right that when your DC is at school or nursery it is down to them to manage his behaviour.

@2bazookas

Hannah I would just like to say how much I admire how you are coping with everything. You come across as a special parent doing her very best , while also managing to keep your cool and stay sane and balanced. You are a very remarkable woman. Hats off to you.

Oh my, thank you so much for such a lovely comment. That made me smile

They said they were able to cope and understood the child’s needs, it seems they are not. Personally, I would look for a new nursery. They don’t seem very supportive. At least when he goes to school he will be working with real professionals.

Sounds like you are doing great and your child is lucky to have you as their mom.

Ask for urgent review meeting with nursery and all professionals involved to talk strategies
And for their ABC charts on his behaviours
They need to be discussing strategies and analysing how and when the behaviour occurs

Sounds like they’re short staffed and overwhelmed, and ignorant about how to manage his behaviour in a nursery.

I sort of get it why they’re frustrated at pick up because if he’s been lashing out they will have to fill in injury forms for every child he hurt. And other parents will complain if their kid is injured or keeps saying X hit/pushed me again, every parent puts their own child first. And of course they can’t tell any parents he has SEN due to confidentiality so they may getting a barrage of complaints or people leaving.

Maybe a change of setting is the best option?

Move nursery. They sound awful with Sen.

Why on Earth are they allowing him to hit other children??? Can’t the 1-2-1 support worker stop him? They should be keeping him and all the other children safe, it’s their job.

I am a nursery Senco, working most of my day delivering 1:1 support for high need children, usually non verbal children who will go to specialist provision school. I’m saddened and angered by your post, it sounds like they said all the right things but in reality are not equipped or experienced in dealing with your DS. The way they are running and the things they are saying are not what you should hear as a parent. I currently 1:1 for 3 mornings a week with a non verbal child who has ASD. He has been attending for 6 weeks and I could tell you his current triggers in the setting, how we are trying to prevent them and how we manage him if he does have a meltdown (which he did today for 45mins) as well as what skills we are working on currently. All of this is documented and recorded daily and shared with the parent. Can you ask to see what the time they are doing with him and how they are preventing these situations occurring? Any half decent 1:1 should be able to prevent some of this. As a parent you should never be made to feel that your child doesn't belong or is an inconvenience, the staff should enjoy being with him and supporting him, if you don’t feel rl that then it’s not the right place for him

He doesn't hit other children often, but I can appreciate that even once is too much and each child has the right to be safe at nursery. There are other children there who exhibit similar behaviour so it should be something they are well versed in by now, given that they advertise as a nursery for children with special needs.

We've had the same problem at home so DS is never left alone unsupervised with DD, not because hitting is inevitable but because we recognise the potential for it to happen as it has before.

We've spent quite a lot of time researching local nurseries and I'm not confident that the others will be able to meet his needs either, the three we visited were in no way set up to accommodate a child with the degree of disability DS has and he wouldn't cope with the small rooms and lack of freedom to roam around. The toddler room at one of the nurseries was the same size as our living room but held over 10 children.

Unfortunately it appears that It's this nursery or nothing. I'm having to give some serious deliberation as to how I want to proceed and whether I want to sacrifice the 2 days restbite.

@LadyOfLittleLeisure

My DC were very similar at that age (both non verbal and diagnosed ASD at 3).

It actually sounds like the nursery have very unrealistic expectations of him: " he wouldn't sit still during circle time, he would get up and wander off to the toys. They like all of the children to sit down in a circle on the carpet and sing songs together / pay attention to whatever they're teaching them. Another point of contention is dinner time. They want all of the children to remain seated at the table and not get up and wander around. DS struggles to stay sat in one place for too long." This is quite an ask for some NT 3 year olds to follow perfectly all the time let alone a child with high needs. Most of early years should be entirely child led (although ideally the sitting properly for dinner should be encouraged).

There's having (good) high expectations but this just sounds like not making adjustments for him.

Really agree with this. I don't really understand why his 1:1 couldn't work with him individually if he wonders off in circle time?

Of course the aim would be for him to sit with the others...but how are they facilitating this? Eg any figit toys he could hold? Or when eating any visual prompts or timers to get him staying there? I'm not an early years specialist, so I might be off in these suggestions (but am a teacher) and this is what I would try. At the very least I would be expecting them (not him) to do something to help him participate for longer periods of time (but not necessarily the whole time)

Their expectations sound well off to be honest.

I think you will have to be firm with this manager about why they (not you) are doing...as you aren't actually there. Of course work together, but berating you isn't helping

I don't think it sounds like they know what they are doing at all. Like pp have said, the ratio of staff to children sounds similar to a mainstream nursery and my child with no special needs wouldn't have sat still for circle time reliably at 3 years old. So I don't think their behaviour expectations are realistic either.

You have a huge responsibility, which you are meeting at home, with medical appointments and assessments, engaging the correct support and settings but when you leave him in their care it's up to them. They are in loco parentis and it's up to them to keep him safe and manage his behaviour as they have been told how to do. You aren't just dumping him on an inexperienced childminder, you found what you were assured was the correct environment hor him. If they can't cope,for whatever reason, then you have to decide if you want to keep working at it with them or take him somewhere else. Your responsibility is his overall care and when he is with you at home or elsewhere, not the detail of what happens at nursery. How can it be?

Of course the aim would be for him to sit with the others...but how are they facilitating this? Eg any figit toys he could hold? Or when eating any visual prompts or timers to get him staying there?

They use visual prompts as suggested by SALT. I reccomended timers which she told me she'd start using. I also reccomended a wobble cushion for his chair if him getting up was causing as much disruption as she claimed, she said she'd use some funding to buy one for him but wasn't very enthusiastic about it and i don't know whether she has.

I don't think their behaviour expectations are realistic either.

It's bloody great to see so many of you saying this, because I was becoming that ground down by the constant complaints I had actually begun to question whether my parenting was the problem. On a conscious level I know it's not but it really gets to you.

Your responsibility is his overall care and when he is with you at home or elsewhere, not the detail of what happens at nursery. How can it be?

That's exactly where my thoughts were at when I posted. I absolutely cannot understand what they expect me to do about his conduct when he's in their care.

There will always be ups and downs with autism, especially when they're so young.

They use visual prompts as suggested by SALT. I reccomended timers which she told me she'd start using. I also reccomended a wobble cushion for his chair if him getting up was causing as much disruption as she claimed, she said she'd use some funding to buy one for him but wasn't very enthusiastic about it and i don't know whether she has.

Well it's good they are doing something...but I you kind of have to wonder if the visual prompts are being used effectively? Like reminding him (just simply pointing to them might be enough) that they are there might help. Of course they might be doing this, and if they aren't working they need to try something else. It sounds like you might need another meeting to go through everything. I would ask if they've started using the timers yet. I think the aim for them should be increasing the time he can sit doing circle time etc gradually, baby steps rather than trying to get him to do the whole time

Is the nursery manager the senco?

The specialist school will be much more understanding. Personally, I would take him out of the setting now. They don't have a clue and you don't need the added stress of lectures about something you can't control. He doesn't need to be prepped for a special needs school, most of them are very good at coping with children with special needs and all that comes with that.

Op my son doesn't have autism but at your son's age he was non verbal, had sensory issues and couldn't tolerate other kids in his space. He had a 121. She was with him constantly. At carpet time he sat at the back or on her lap. Half days so no lunch. They worked really hard to get him sitting near other kids and touching things like sand. His 121 who hadn't got any specialist skills was amazing. If mainstream can do it, yours bloody well ought to. Sure I have no better advice than you've had here already but just solidarity.

YANBU I have a school age ASD child who we are trying very hard to get an ECHP for. I find it hugely demoralising when I’m repeated told about situations that clearly I can’t influence since I’m not there. We are good parents with other ‘well behaved’ children for the record. I feel for his teacher but me “speaking” to my son or applying some sanction will be about as effective as me giving a sticker chart to a baby when they cry. It drives me mad. Try your hardest to let it wash over you @Hannah941 and suggest they get the autism as advisory team in.

They are expecting too much from him.

Lots of children his age will struggle to sit still even if NT. There shouldn’t be much of that in early years of it’s any good. Even participation in circle time should be chosen not mandatory. So it doesn’t sound like a very good nursery anyway.

Can you tell if he enjoys nursery or does he not give much away? I wonder if you'd be better taking him out and getting respite another way. The nursery probably isn't helping prepare him for school if they are unable to manage his behaviour and potentially putting him off by trying to force things like circle time.

The nursery must have said they were able to meet your son's needs when they agreed to be named in the EHCP, so they shouldn't be pushing this on you. At most, they should be talking about working collaboratively and mutually liaising on strategies etc that work best.

But as they seem to be struggling, it would make sense to ask for an emergency annual review so as to discuss what extra support should be in place. Were speech and language and occupational therapy assessments done before the EHCP was issued? If not, that might a good place to start - make sure the occupational therapist knows about sensory difficulties.

Are you in touch with the PDA association? Lots of good advice and information available through them.

Have they managed to arrange the 1-1, baring in mind the EHCP was only put in place 2 weeks ago? If not, are they trying to use a current member of staff? If that's the case, I'd want to know what they are going to do about this..

Of course the aim would be for him to sit with the others...but how are they facilitating this? Eg any figit toys he could hold? Or when eating any visual prompts or timers to get him staying there? This is incredibly naive and shows no understanding at all of a child with significant challenges who lack the ability to focus or sit still. He’s only 3 too.

Why on earth try with fidgit toys and timers to something relatively unimportant (sitting still is not important) when they haven’t even begun to successfully address challenging behaviour (hitting) which is far more important?

It shows they have no idea of what to do.

The priority of any self respecting provision for special needs is on helping behaviour and basic needs - and for that child to spend the day in a calm and positive way that feeds their happiness.

Everything else can go out of the window until the above has really settled in.

And really no child of 3 should be expected to sit in circle time - many children cannot do this and it doesn’t make it a behaviour to ‘be fixed’ - that’s just making kids sit still and be obedient which is very old school!

Yanbu - you are not responsible for his conduct when he is in their care. They need Autism specific training for their staff.

Unfortunately though this is typical of providers who say they can meet needs but really can't. Keep advocating for your child and mind your mental health. Things are probably not going to improve soon.