To feel I'm not responsible for my disabled child's conduct at nursery?

[Hannah941]

My pre school age old child is autistic (diagnosed) and strongly fits the PDA profile, thus he has associated challenging behavioural. He has an EHCP and is currently in an early years setting that claims to know about and understand SN children.

As per most children on the spectrum his behaviour can be very challenging. After consulting with an ed psych, paediatrican and numerous SALT therapists we are following their suggestions and implementing reccomended strategies at home. He has made good progress in a year but he'll always be autistic and have difficulties with emotional regulation and conduct. He has been known to hit and push other children. I get that's it's not acceptable but he's not the only child there who does this.

His EHCP specifically outlines this as a primary challenge he has and so 1-1 is needed (and required by law now) most of the time.

The problem I'm facing at the moment is when I go to pick him up from his setting I'm being berated for the way he behaves and told I need to improve his behaviour, for example throwing things and him throwing himself on the floor is problematic for them.

There's nothing I can do at home that I'm not already doing and yes it's incredibly challenging sometimes. Of course it is. I'm on my knees with it sometimes.

They knew about all of this before I enrolled him. I explained exactly what problems we have and I chose this place specifically because they claim to have extensive knowledge about SN children and DS wouldn't cope in mainstream.

Today when I collected him she was going off on a tangent about how his behaviour needs to improve and how despite being predominantly non verbal he does understand what he's doing.

She wouldn't let me get a word in edgeways, i was spoken over when I tried to explain that 'standard' techniques just don't work for DS bevause he fits the PDA profile.

I asked her if she knew anything about PDA and she didn't, she asked me to send her some links

I left the building feeling stressed and upset, like I'd just been told off.

I don't feel as though I'm directly responsible for his struggles and conduct when he's there as I'm already doing everything I should be, and then some. He's disabled for gods sake.

AIBU?

Overall, if you don’t ‘have’ to have him in nursery, and it’s respite, I’d instead find a great childminder that can do an activity he really loves or even just play with him in the garden.

I am of the belief that if a child is constantly unhappy in nursery or school and exhibiting more challenging behaviours that I think it’s detrimental to them, and doesn’t build a good base for later school.

@TeenMinusTests

I'd be tempted to start by responding every time they tell you of something 'why did the 1-1 let that happen?'. Either the 1-1 won't have been there (which clearly puts the onus back on them) or you can say, I'm sorry, but if the 1-1 couldn't stop it, what do you expect me to do when I wasn't even there.

This

PDA needs a different strategy and approach to other autistic spectrum conditions so if they're trying their usual techniques because they don't know what PDA is then they won't work. That's not your fault. Surely it's their job to research and to do adequate CPD. I know PDA isn't fully recognised in the UK.

There are several PDA support groups on Facebook and you might get some good suggestions there.

The staff ratio is worrying. Ds2 is in a discrete autism class in a (secondary) special school. 4 adults to 7 children. Quite often Ds2 and/or other kids in the class need to be 1:1. Meantime your supposedly sen focused nursery isn't offering ratios any better than mainstream.

And I agree that some of the headline (lip service) autism strategies are the worst thing possible for pda.

Ds1 has strong pda traits. Never officially diagnosed but widely acknowledged. Even camhs modified his diagnosis to atypical autism. All that good practice about giving lots of warning about transition? That transformed in his pda mind into oh bloody hell this thing is going to change in 10 minutes PANIIIIIC!!!! Give him a longer time to come to terms with something and that gave him time to think of 50 reasons why it shouldn't happen.

OP Get them to write these incidents down!

This will be the key to thing it all together. With them telling you, they are just able to say this, this and this happened, and put it back onto you. Whilst he's an nursery, you have no control over what's happening.
From what you have described the nursery isn't geared up staffwise to deal with SN children at that ratio, especially as one of those staff members should be focusing solely on your son!
I think that solves the question as to why these incidents are happening.
If you get approached again with these concerns, I would ask if a Home/Nursery contact book could be completed. Ask them to write the date/ time/ incident/ staff member who dealt with it. Feign concern, say it's easier for you to be able to keep a better record of concerns or developments, and to help with updating others in his care team, if they're written down. This will be the way to see for yourself how efficient they are... Truth be told, I think they'll bluster and ummm and ahhhh, and refuse to do it... The reason, you'll find out the truth of exactly what is happening.
It doesn't hurt to ask though right? It's also something you can raise when you do need to talk to his care team.
I don't think the paediatrician would support him being in a setting where he's not getting the right support, as it's going to lead to setbacks. You're doing your bit at home, and you are trying to work with the nursery... If they're not doing their bit, it's going to lead to him being in situations that are making things worse long-term.
Hopefully you can speak to others involved in his care, and get support. I really hope you manage to find a way forward bless you, for you and your little boy. All the best xx

@Startingagainperson

Of course the aim would be for him to sit with the others...but how are they facilitating this? Eg any figit toys he could hold? Or when eating any visual prompts or timers to get him staying there? This is incredibly naive and shows no understanding at all of a child with significant challenges who lack the ability to focus or sit still. He’s only 3 too.

Why on earth try with fidgit toys and timers to something relatively unimportant (sitting still is not important) when they haven’t even begun to successfully address challenging behaviour (hitting) which is far more important?

It shows they have no idea of what to do.

The priority of any self respecting provision for special needs is on helping behaviour and basic needs - and for that child to spend the day in a calm and positive way that feeds their happiness.

Everything else can go out of the window until the above has really settled in.

And really no child of 3 should be expected to sit in circle time - many children cannot do this and it doesn’t make it a behaviour to ‘be fixed’ - that’s just making kids sit still and be obedient which is very old school!

I'm saying it would be an "aim" note not a necessity. The problem is forcing him to do it and getting frustrated when he can't. Clearly his mum also agrees it's a good idea to try to get him participating as she's suggested timers too. And salt agree as they recommended visual prompts too. So it seems my advice isn't as awful as you are making out!

Of course address the hitting!

5 pages later and I just don’t understand why these are happening if he has a 1:1? What are they doing other than impersonating a pot plant.

This is a tricky one I've a child who is on the ASD spectrum who was a horror however it IS my responsibility about the way he behaves in any setting and to correct it. As our pediatrician said he will only get bigger and stronger and it will be harder. Also being a 1:1 and supporting an ASD child who has no boundaries i can assure you it's not fun having a child hitting, biting, and throwing chairs ect at you. And i can assure you we follow all advice and do all we can to support them. I really would try to nip this behaviour in the bud

@Milkandhoney888 I don’t agree. If your job is to work as a 1-1 to a SN child, it is your job to implement any recommended strategies noted in the plan and to find ways to reduce & manage the behaviours listed.
No matter how much work is done at home, if a child is uncomfortable, unhappy, distressed or overwhelmed, this will result in behaviours that need to be managed and supported by someone with the patience & thorough understanding of the child’s needs.
If this person doesn’t have these, they shouldn’t be working with your child.

speaking” to my son or applying some sanction will be about as effective as me giving a sticker chart to a baby when they cry

I think this is a really good phrase to have to hand when anyone like OP is expected to 'do something' about their asd child's behaviour in school.

Why on earth try with fidgit toys and timers to something relatively unimportant (sitting still is not important) when they haven’t even begun to successfully address challenging behaviour (hitting) which is far more important?

Sorry, I'm going to take issue with this. Being able to sit calmly is the most important thing, and the first thing we worked on when five year old children arrived I my specialist school class. Focus is everything. No learning can take place without it..And it's learning to sit that will also play a big part in preventing hitting. It enables the staff to be close, and a child who is focused and engaged is less likely to hit.

We established calm focused sitting surprisingly quickly (and via fun strategies like attention autism), and it made a huge difference.
It's obviously much harder to do in a free flow nursery than in my calm classroom with its horse shoe table, but it's still a vital skill.

He isn't a monster / risk to life or limb, he's just a little boy with autism who needs supporting correctly

No, he isn't a monster. I wonder if the practitioner allocated to your boy resents being made to do 1-2-1. Some practitioners relish the challenge whereas others prefer working with a group rather than one child. It certainly sounds like they don't have the skills and that's not fair on them, your DS or you.

Just an idea, but could you remove him from the setting and employ a teaching or early years student to look after him for a few hours a day in your home. So he gets the individual care he needs and you get a break?

@saraclara

Why on earth try with fidgit toys and timers to something relatively unimportant (sitting still is not important) when they haven’t even begun to successfully address challenging behaviour (hitting) which is far more important?

Sorry, I'm going to take issue with this. Being able to sit calmly is the most important thing, and the first thing we worked on when five year old children arrived I my specialist school class. Focus is everything. No learning can take place without it..And it's learning to sit that will also play a big part in preventing hitting. It enables the staff to be close, and a child who is focused and engaged is less likely to hit.

We established calm focused sitting surprisingly quickly (and via fun strategies like attention autism), and it made a huge difference.
It's obviously much harder to do in a free flow nursery than in my calm classroom with its horse shoe table, but it's still a vital skill.

I agree with you. I think the danger of saying just focus on the hitting and nothing else as pp said is that staff go to the other extreme of having no expectations of him and writing him off 'oh he's got autism, he can't do X,y and z' rather than putting in support to help him. It's a tough balance between having expectations high so he learns (through play at this age) and having realistic expectations.

It's unrealistic to expect him to sit still for long periods of time, but its reasonable to help him to try to sit for a short period of time. The important bit is they don't get frustrated.

He does appear to enjoy going yes, which is why I backed out of cancelling his place a few times when I've been frustrated with them before.

I'm not in touch with the PDA society but I'll do some research today. I've sent an email to his EHCP caseworker and asked if we can schedule a call to discuss some issues that have cropped up already.

And really no child of 3 should be expected to sit in circle time - many children cannot do this and it doesn’t make it a behaviour to ‘be fixed’ - that’s just making kids sit still and be obedient which is very old school!

That's how we see it too. It's very frustrating. They seem to be applying a one size fits all approach for all the kids regardless of their individual needs and if certain ones don't fall in line they're marked as challenging and need to be segregated.

Overall, if you don’t ‘have’ to have him in nursery, and it’s respite, I’d instead find a great childminder that can do an activity he really loves or even just play with him in the garden

We don't need him there, it's purely for the benefit of him socialising, having a change of scenery and me getting a break. I'll look into local childminders and see if there are any with sufficient knowledge of autism.

If you get approached again with these concerns, I would ask if a Home/Nursery contact book could be completed. Ask them to write the date/ time/ incident/ staff member who dealt with it.

We do have a nursery/home book but they rarely record these incidents properly, for the most part it's just a brief paragraph saying what he's done during the day and what he's eaten. I'm going to ask that they record everything in the ABC format reccomended on the thread.

Just an idea, but could you remove him from the setting and employ a teaching or early years student to look after him for a few hours a day in your home

It's a lovely idea but we just don't have the space to make that work, due to the layout I would still be with DS all day

Something else they mentioned yesterday that I forgot to include. They focus alot on independent life skills so an example of that is that at dinner time once the kids have finished eating they want them to scrape their leftovers into the bin.

It's not something we're that bothered about at home and would prefer DS just enjoyed his dinner.

Well apparently he's throwing his food around when he's finished eating at nursery and I suspect that's because they expect him to stay sat there until everyone else is finished. I will get clarification about that.

He doesn't throw his food around at home infact he's become really good with dinner time so he's obviously getting stressed about dinner time there.

The more you say the more this sounds like a completely inappropriate setting for your child. I’m absolutely baffled that what you’re describing is described as a SN nursery and that they are talking about segregating him away. Are they this negative to him/in front of him - the impact on his self esteem can’t be good.

The only thing that would stop me pulling him out in your position is whether it would have any bearing on your chances of getting your preferred school - my child has ASD but is in mainstream so I’m not sure the criteria, but are you going to need nursery input into an ehcp that names the school for example? Are they accumulating a useful body of evidence that he will need specialist provision?

Some children have gone on to this special school after leaving the nursery and the nursery have paved the way so to speak, but he already has an EHCP now.

I'm waiting to get a call from his caseworker to go over my concerns so I'll see what she says about that as it's a good question.

I'm feeling so fed up with it all today. I haven't done pick up for the past two weeks as I haven't been well, yesterday reminded me of how bloody draining it is.

Are they this negative to him/in front of him - the impact on his self esteem can’t be good.

Oh yes, she says all of these things infront of him at pick up which is quite remarkable given how she insists he can understand everything.

DS (and younger DD) were there with me yesterday when she was going on about all of his challenging behaviour and how things need to change.

He was brought out by another staff member a few minutes after she started talking to me about it but he was there for a good %50 of it.

@Hannah941

Are they this negative to him/in front of him - the impact on his self esteem can’t be good.

Oh yes, she says all of these things infront of him at pick up which is quite remarkable given how she insists he can understand everything.

DS (and younger DD) were there with me yesterday when she was going on about all of his challenging behaviour and how things need to change.

OP, this is just disgusting beyond words. You need to make people aware of the failings of this nursery. I'm sure any recommendations to leave him there by paediatricians would be reconsidered after the truth of what's going on there is made known. The Manager telling you he knows what he's doing, and then talking about him with so much negativity is going to impact on his well-being. If she's being this brazen with her comments with you present, what's she doing/ saying to him when you're not present?

Thank you Gertie, I will be doing.

I'm sure she'd tell you, and whoever else, that she's not being negative purely highlighting areas that need improvement.

It's not necessary to ambush me at pick up infront of the children like that, she could have easily emailed or sent a message.

This all happened within earshot of one of the young apprentices too and honestly it was humiliating.

Sorry but that's rubbish, both school and home need to implement the same boundaries and expectations when it comes to behaviour. A child especially on the ASD spectrum can't have different rules of behaviour for different settings. It causes confusion and actually distresses them because it's confusing. Both parent and school should use the same reward system's ect. As i said we use all the tools we are recommended and I'm the most patient person in the world. But you can't expect a child who struggles to regulate their emotions to be allowed to kick off at home and behave in a way there, to not do it at school or nursery. Consistency is key

@Milkandhoney888

Sorry but that's rubbish, both school and home need to implement the same boundaries and expectations when it comes to behaviour. A child especially on the ASD spectrum can't have different rules of behaviour for different settings. It causes confusion and actually distresses them because it's confusing. Both parent and school should use the same reward system's ect. As i said we use all the tools we are recommended and I'm the most patient person in the world. But you can't expect a child who struggles to regulate their emotions to be allowed to kick off at home and behave in a way there, to not do it at school or nursery. Consistency is key

I'm not sure which angle you're coming from? We implement all of the strategies suggested by professionals at home.