To feel I'm not responsible for my disabled child's conduct at nursery?

[Hannah941]

My pre school age old child is autistic (diagnosed) and strongly fits the PDA profile, thus he has associated challenging behavioural. He has an EHCP and is currently in an early years setting that claims to know about and understand SN children.

As per most children on the spectrum his behaviour can be very challenging. After consulting with an ed psych, paediatrican and numerous SALT therapists we are following their suggestions and implementing reccomended strategies at home. He has made good progress in a year but he'll always be autistic and have difficulties with emotional regulation and conduct. He has been known to hit and push other children. I get that's it's not acceptable but he's not the only child there who does this.

His EHCP specifically outlines this as a primary challenge he has and so 1-1 is needed (and required by law now) most of the time.

The problem I'm facing at the moment is when I go to pick him up from his setting I'm being berated for the way he behaves and told I need to improve his behaviour, for example throwing things and him throwing himself on the floor is problematic for them.

There's nothing I can do at home that I'm not already doing and yes it's incredibly challenging sometimes. Of course it is. I'm on my knees with it sometimes.

They knew about all of this before I enrolled him. I explained exactly what problems we have and I chose this place specifically because they claim to have extensive knowledge about SN children and DS wouldn't cope in mainstream.

Today when I collected him she was going off on a tangent about how his behaviour needs to improve and how despite being predominantly non verbal he does understand what he's doing.

She wouldn't let me get a word in edgeways, i was spoken over when I tried to explain that 'standard' techniques just don't work for DS bevause he fits the PDA profile.

I asked her if she knew anything about PDA and she didn't, she asked me to send her some links

I left the building feeling stressed and upset, like I'd just been told off.

I don't feel as though I'm directly responsible for his struggles and conduct when he's there as I'm already doing everything I should be, and then some. He's disabled for gods sake.

AIBU?

My DC were very similar at that age (both non verbal and diagnosed ASD at 3).

It actually sounds like the nursery have very unrealistic expectations of him: " he wouldn't sit still during circle time, he would get up and wander off to the toys. They like all of the children to sit down in a circle on the carpet and sing songs together / pay attention to whatever they're teaching them. Another point of contention is dinner time. They want all of the children to remain seated at the table and not get up and wander around. DS struggles to stay sat in one place for too long." This is quite an ask for some NT 3 year olds to follow perfectly all the time let alone a child with high needs. Most of early years should be entirely child led (although ideally the sitting properly for dinner should be encouraged).

There's having (good) high expectations but this just sounds like not making adjustments for him.

In SN Nursery age setting I wouldn't be expecting a child with autism to have learned to sit at circle time yet AT ALL. (I have worked in special school for 16+ years) It's very early days for him, and he is very young!

The staffing level sounds a joke.. I suspect it's 3:15 in reality which is simply not sufficient (for context my class we have 8 pupils 1:2 ..in other classes some are 1:1 ..and that means at ALL times..every minute of the school day because their needs mean it is essential)

I'd want a meeting that spells this out... ask them to do ABC documentation... Antecedent, Behaviour, Consequence for EVERY incident... what preceded the problem, what happened and what happened next. If they are as experienced as claimed they will be familiar with this, and it will a) flag up if they are doing their job, b) what the triggers are so that a plan cn be made to reduce these and c) whether the consequences have any point to them whatsoever. All behaviour is communication... and it looks like they are neither recognising or responding to this :(

If in doubt take him out.. honestly he doesn't need prepping for SN school.. a good SN school will be help him transition!

If the EHCP was granted 2 weeks ago then I doubt they will have got the staffing in place yet. I was involved with a mainstream preschool who had a child assessed and eventually diagnosed as needing a 1-2-1. We couldn’t recruit an appropriate person for love nor money, the level of funding is shocking. For a small preschool it was impossible - we desperately wanted to do the right thing by the child but couldn’t.
Not saying this is the case here, and absolutely keep pushing to understand what is going on, but there could be an element of just being completely overwhelmed, especially if it is a specialist provision.

I hope it all works out for you, good luck.

I would also say that if there isn't the will to make it work, it won't work. My dd attended two nurseries: only one was really prepared to make the necessary changes for it to work. They both said the right things but they were very different. Start looking for something else. If the manager is already being unhelpful, it isn't worth the effort.

Oh for goodness sake! Do they not have a SN coordinator/lead! They should.

YANBU of course your ds will need to learn to behave in a more socially acceptable manner if he able but he's tiny. It will take years and, some stuff like circle time, may never be suitable for him.

Sorry but they sound absolutely rubbish.

The fact is, regardless of autism, your child still needs to learn a level of control or how will he ever function in society? I think this view echo’s that of the nursery - no understanding of autism. It’s nothing something you can switch off and the child is 3! Most children have to learn how to function in society and most of 3 are still not able to share. A child with autism and PDA may find this more difficult, however much of it is that the environment and people are setting that child up to fail. Many children with autism will have to have an environment that suits them well into adulthood and perhaps the whole of their lives. Many people do without autism. It is absolutely not fair to blame poor behaviour on a child, it is the responsibility of the adults around them. IF the adults blame the child they are deflecting their own lack of skills and understanding.

Reading your latest updates OP and that fact that there are 4 adults to 14 children - they are in no way set up for additional needs children. I’d take them out.

And also the expecting children to sit at circle time is an absolute joke. Many kids, autism or not cannot do this. My older son is not autistic but couldn’t sit in circle time until he was about 6. Some kids are more active. If they don’t understand that they are not a good nursery.

You need a new nursery / school. Their attitude is not acceptable and unlikely to change.
I say this as the parent of a child with autism and learning difficulties who had challenging behaviour and as a governor of a special school.

If funding only came through two weeks ago, then the nursery setting wouldn't have had time to recruit an extra member of staff to provide your child with 1-1 and, I guess, they have been struggling with just their normal staff. They can't just produce someone out of thin air immediately, neither could they have employed an extra staff member without the funding in place, yet you expect them to be able to provide it and that your child will behave better there than he does at home. They have lots of other children whose parents pay the same amount as you to have equal attention and expect them to be in a safe environment.

I'm not unsympathetic with your situation, I'm sure life is hard for you, and have worked a lot in the past with children with additional needs and challenging behaviour but I have often found, from experience, that parents can have unrealistic expectations with settings when they can't even manage the challenging behaviour themselves.

They may have to "educate" him separately 🙄

Seriously isn't it supposed to be about learning through play and minimal social skills which often only turn taking and side by side play??

Manager sounds stuck in the 90s

I'm a recently retired teacher of children with severe autism and learning difficulties.

A nursery setting is really challenging for a child like your DC. I've visited many, and with the best will in the world, they simply can't meet their needs. Some try hard, some just pay lip service.
Nursery philosophy is free flow, and the children I visited prior to them coming to my school were pretty lost there. They can't be protected from other children getting into their space or wanting what they have (and vice versa) and the routine and security that they need simply can't be provided in that kind of setting.

I loved having the entry class at our school, because the progress the children made within weeks, was just stunning. In a class of 6-8 with 3-4 adults, in one room, and with our structures, strategies and equipment (horseshoe tables, etc) they just blossomed. And their parents were bowled over by all the positive news instead of being greeted every day with what their child had done wrong at nursery.

Are you in contact with the new school yet? Do they have a family worker who liaises with future parents? Do their staff liaise with the feeder SN nurseries? It might be that they can help you and/or the nursery.

Failing that, you've been given good advice here already. Hang in there, but if you ever feel that his behaviour or happiness is deteriorating because of the staff there, taking him out might be the best thing.

No idea what his 1-1 is doing at the point of these things happening. I would love to know that myself.

They're clearly short staffed

I suspect the 1-1 is being used for general staffing.

I've clicked on and off this thread half a dozen times because I don't actually want to say what I think I need to say, because after all your DS deserves to go to nursery and you deserve to have a break.

But.

They aren't meeting his needs and because they aren't meeting his needs, him being there is probably doing him more harm than good. I think you should take him out.

The expectation at circle time for a room full of toddlers with SN is actually mind boggling.

Can you ask his paediatrician to contact the nursery head and offer them some hard advice?

Certainly request a formal interview appointment with the head to discuss nursery staff training about children like him (and the steps you have taken on advice from other professionals) .

She should blush for any parent of an SN child to be harangued like that at pick up time.

Last resort, you could make a formal complaint to the Education authority that the nursery is advertising SN care but seems not to provide it.

I’ve worked in early years, occasionally with SN, for years and I came on to say their approach to circle time rang massive alarm bells with me - but I can see others have got there first!!

If they really cannot cope with the idea a group of 15 pre-schoolers might not all sit quietly in a circle on demand for an entire activity then they are scarily unprepared to deal with children with additional needs.

And if OP has ‘unrealistic expectations’ of what the nursery could offer it might have something to do with the fact this is precisely what the nursery told her they could offer!

No YANBU they need to do more it seems, and read up on things how awful.

They are being incredibly cheeky and rude telling YOU his MOTHER how to parent. He needs his 1 on 1 support.

I would be looking to enroll him at another SN school.

Hannah I would just like to say how much I admire how you are coping with everything. You come across as a special parent doing her very best , while also managing to keep your cool and stay sane and balanced. You are a very remarkable woman. Hats off to you.

Let them talk themselves out and don't interrupt - just wait for them to finish then ask short but concise questions such as:
Where was his 1:1 carer when this happened?
What solution can you (nursery) put in place to help this?

Remind them, you're not looking for reaffirmation of how challenging his behaviour is you are aware, but what are they offering in terms of solutions. I have found this also works with any carer/teacher who has a tendency to restate the bad behaviour over and over, but doesn't concentrate on the solution.

OP, I think I'm in the vague same location as we've also worked with Drumbeat (who were amazing!)

Does the nursery begin with B? If so, I've heard mixed reports of them, and their failed Ofsted report is very enlightening reading.

I can massively recommend joining a parent support group called Signal, if you're in the borough beginning with L - they are both incredibly knowledgeable with these situations, and supportive too.

Best of luck x

Can you request a meeting where you will go over every detail of his diagnosis and ask the person you speak with to tell you exactly what they know about all of the behaviours and how to manage them?

It's very worrying that they didn't know what PDA is. It sounds to me as if the person who berated you doesn't know your DS has additional needs.

Ask to have a meeting with the senco at the nursery and tell them to go through his plan and support him appropriately! Do you have a specialist early years service in your borough? I would ask the senco to give them a call if they need more support in supporting your son.
You have my utmost sympathy OP, having been where you are. My son was the same in nursery but I work and had no alternative but for him to attend nursery.

Thank you for the replies, there's a wealth of brilliant advice here and I'm making notes of all of it.

Coincidentally, as I was eating my dinner a message came through from the nursery manager:

"Please send me the name as am still in the office so I can forward over to Drumbeat. It will all be okay in the end. Will arrange for another EP input."

The name she's referring to is PDA, which I've tried talking to her about 3 times now and explaining why it's not reasonable to expect DS to a one size fits all approach. Drumbeat is the outreach service attatched to the SN school DS will be attending next year, all being well. They provide guidance to early years settings with SN children so they'll be familiar with PDA and associated strategies.

Now, DS diagnosis is purely 'autism spectrum disorder' but he absolutely does fit the PDA profile. This is a conclusion me and DH have reached after doing endless research and liasing with other people/parents with children on the spectrum. I can already predict that after doing some brief reading she'll say it doesn't apply to him because that specific profile hasn't been formally diagnosed - so I'm just waiting for that clanger now.

In regards to the 1:1 she tell me today that they "have somebody now that sits with him" so in theory that should now be in practice. I'll ask for further clarification.

I'm glad some of you have raised an eyebrow at the requirement DS must sit down nicely for circle time. They made a huge deal out of it and it was a constant headache for us.

I've been on the verge of withdrawing him on a few occasions now as the constant complaints were taking a toll but decided to stick at it because the couple of days a week break I get by sending him were a god send.

I also agree the staffing ratio isn't right for 14-15 children with special needs. When we're at home (me and DH) it can often take both of us to manage a meltdown if the triggers aren't noticed quick enough and we're not able to divert them.