Maths ... AIBU?

[eatsleepread]

I was chatting with a colleague the other day; we have daughters in secondary school, and both are struggling with Maths. I am currently looking for a tutor for my daughter.
I simply cannot understand the 'one size fits all' approach to the teaching of this subject, and believe that it requires an overhaul. Why - when she does perfectly well in her other subjects - would my daughter need to learn about the equation of a line, trigonometry, algebra? What good is going to come of this in her everyday future life?
Rather, why can't she be taught mathematics related life skills? Lessons that revolve around addition, subtraction, percentages, bank statements, interest ... and all other useful elements of the subject.
Leave the serious study of maths to those who are gifted or even interested in it. And let the others ditch it in favour of the practical basics, where they might actually achieve something.
Why are they all still being taught the same things? And why are so many young people particularly girls still failing at this subject?
AIBU?

Because you don’t know which dc will go on to a job that requires these skills when they are 11-16?

I have a job that’s based around words and design yet there are a number of times when I need to analyse data to inform my writing so graph reading and data analysis is essential - without them I’d not have risen up to the level I’m now at at 39. At secondary I actually had already decided the career I wanted but didn’t know then that I’d need it. I’ve also used pythagorus theory in diy.

I think in part YABU and in part YANBU.

There does definitely need to be more teaching of life skills - this is numeracy.

Maths and numeracy aren’t the same though. Maths is an academic discipline. One of the things that school study must achieve is to offer the opportunity to open doors to the next stage of study in each subject. There are other things too of course but making maths a stand-alone “life skills” subject which doesn’t feed into a level would have huge practical ramifications for the delivery of the subject and long term effects in our success as a country at producing mathematicians.

I’m sure there is some truth in the fact that it needs to be overhauled to better engage pupils. But I think this is in how it is taught. Also lots of adults don’t model to young people positive attitudes to maths. It’s very common to hear “I was no good at maths” and “maths is a useless subject” from all sorts of people - parents, teachers of other subjects... so it’s no wonder we put young people off.

I’m not a maths teacher by the way, and I didn’t like maths at school.

God I hate this “maths is hard” narrative. No-one is proud of not being able to read, but this “girls find maths hard” attitude is depressing and pervasive.

No wonder she’s failing with an attitude like the OP’s as a role model.

Because if your daughter wants to become an engineer, architect, structural surveyor, physicist, chemist, data analyst or take up any one of hundreds of other professions, a proficiency in maths, statistics and logical thinking is essential.

I am actually better at maths now as an adult, than I ever was at school. This became particularly apparent during (lockdown) homeschooling, as I needed to learn the maths that my youngest had to do! So I take your point, but do think that life skills, experience and maturity can lead to us learning 'on the job', so to speak.
You probably always had an aptitude for Maths, but what about those who really don't ...

I am still pro Arithmetic!

And why are so many young people particularly girls still failing at this subject? what do you mean by this? I would argue that a lot of girls are told from an early age that a) Maths is hard b) it is OK to not do well in Maths and c) girls don't do very well at Maths.

Your DD is being taught these things in order that those who have parents who don't see the value in being taught these things can;t hold their children back. If your DD needs more support in Maths then it is great you are going to pay for that but you shoudl be much more positive about the value of Maths, it underpins so many other subjects and you only have to look at the situation with covid to see how much bearing Maths has on everyday life, even if we don't alwasy see it.

Watching this thread with interest. I agree wholeheartedly about the pitfalls of the 'one size fits all' teaching of maths in this country, and agree that numeracy/life skills should be taught to everybody - make it a stand-alone GCSE subject - with those wanting to pursue it at a greater depth able to do so.

@MaskingForIt

God I hate this “maths is hard” narrative. No-one is proud of not being able to read, but this “girls find maths hard” attitude is depressing and pervasive.

No wonder she’s failing with an attitude like the OP’s as a role model.

Chances are you've never experienced it. I'm simply being realistic about the situation. And what a nasty dig you managed to get in there.

@Gingernaut I see what you're saying, but there are also many many careers that don't rely on maths, which brings me back to my comment about everybody learning numeracy and those with passion/interest taking it further.

High School maths is challenging.
The boy/girl thing is interesting - I'm not sure that there is any inherent advantage for boys. 'Invisible women' has an interesting chapter about this.

We don’t want to limit the career of a child due to their abilities at 11 years old. Things like algebra are used in everyday life, in baking for example, or cooking a turkey. Getting by in day to day life isn’t the serious study of maths.

Try reading a utility bill without algebra.

The "when am I ever going to need it?" arguement could well be applied to any subject. I won a prize in junior school for my project on Greek mythology... Which I have never in my life needed to know. I have GCSEs in subjects I've never used as a fully functioning adult. Lower down secondary school I studied how to dissect an eyeball of a cow or something!
The point is that you just don't know what you're going to need and you also don't know how you're going to take to a subject until you try.
But I fully agree that we should teach life skill maths! As well, not instead though

It's not "particularly girls" that are failing maths at all, op. I really think your attitude is rubbing off on your daughter.
Studying maths reserved for the gifted indeed

Percentages etc is primary school maths.

You can't know at 12 what you might want to do at A-level or degree. Maths crops up in a lot of subjects - my kids do/did degrees in Business and psychology and they have maths in them.

Even between the ages of 14 and 16, academic interests can change. All of my kids have a GCSE that they wouldn't have done in hindsight.

I disagree with the girls finding maths hard comment too.

My dd got an 8 at GCSE and half of her class (too set) were female. She's predicted an A at A-level maths.

I think that parents that have the attitude that maths is hard often pass that on to their children unwittingly. Of course there's exceptions (the other parent might be strong at maths) but finding maths hard is much more socially acceptable in the UK than finding reading hard ime and that's sad.

Agree that 'particularly girls' is deeply unhelpful and I'm fully convinced of the value of all children studying maths but really curious @SimonJT how algebra is used in baking and reading utility bills? I do both and am not aware of using algebra for either...

@MaskingForIt

God I hate this “maths is hard” narrative. No-one is proud of not being able to read, but this “girls find maths hard” attitude is depressing and pervasive.

No wonder she’s failing with an attitude like the OP’s as a role model.

Nasty post

All the things you list as 'life-skills' maths are taught at Primary.

I mean, we could allow children - some children - to stop maths after they've taken their SATS.

Your daughter, maybe? 11 - job done?

Or other kids, your daughter?, could just repeat Primary maths until 16.

Might get boring. Might not. What's her boredom threshold?

Look, most people never use a whole load of school skills, even the practical ones. When was the last time you did some pattern-cutting? Or Physics? Or played hockey?

But we give them a go, and we do it seriously, and sometimes they shine.

Because limiting them from the start is something we decided, as a society, not to do.

PS Try not to project your own issues about education onto your children. Surely you want them to exceed your accomplishments?

This is a similar attitude to people who don't see any value in learning a foreign language because "everyone speaks English".

This country's attitude to learning in general seems stuck in a rut of if it doesn't have immediate value then don't bother.

So you would rather limit a child's life options at the age of 11 and keep them doing primary school-level maths until they are 16?

I don't use music or art or languages or biology in my day job, that does not mean it was a waste of time learning these subjects. My education gave me choices, allowed me to find the things I'm good at and interested in. It's disappointing you want to limit your child's education.

I think the op has a point actually. I get the counter argument too but not everyone is going to become engineers or whatever and need the more complex maths. Why not teach them actually properly generally useful stuff with an extra maths for those with a talent for it. I think that would benefit both my younger two dc. Eldest lucky to just get it.

OP, we make children study English, science, a humanity and (at most schools) a modern foreign language until age 16 too. Should they also be allowed to give up those if they don't like them / aren't good at them? My teen DS doesn't like English - now he can read, write and spell to a good level should he be allowed to give that up too? Why just maths?

Our DD is just finishing her first year maths degree. From being young, she struggled with maths and I was no help.
When she was about 14 it fell into place for her.
Boys outnumber girls in her year by a huge margin

@BewareTheBeardedDragon

Agree that 'particularly girls' is deeply unhelpful and I'm fully convinced of the value of all children studying maths but really curious *@SimonJT* how algebra is used in baking and reading utility bills? I do both and am not aware of using algebra for either...

Presumably a quarterly utility bill is divided by 3 and a baking recipe might involve doubling so it makes twice as much food which is a form of algebra

Algebra is fancy arithmetic imo

Also you don't have to keep taking the art subjects till you pass like you have to for maths and English.