Maths ... AIBU?

[eatsleepread]

I was chatting with a colleague the other day; we have daughters in secondary school, and both are struggling with Maths. I am currently looking for a tutor for my daughter.
I simply cannot understand the 'one size fits all' approach to the teaching of this subject, and believe that it requires an overhaul. Why - when she does perfectly well in her other subjects - would my daughter need to learn about the equation of a line, trigonometry, algebra? What good is going to come of this in her everyday future life?
Rather, why can't she be taught mathematics related life skills? Lessons that revolve around addition, subtraction, percentages, bank statements, interest ... and all other useful elements of the subject.
Leave the serious study of maths to those who are gifted or even interested in it. And let the others ditch it in favour of the practical basics, where they might actually achieve something.
Why are they all still being taught the same things? And why are so many young people particularly girls still failing at this subject?
AIBU?

Yeah you're right OP. Kids like your dd should be written off aged 10 and given special lessons in how to do shopping and understand the bill. None of this fancy pants algebra. And as for Shakespeare, why on earth would she want to study him. He's been dead hundreds of years. Teach her to read The Sun instead. And Geography - well she won't be going further than Ibiza will she so no point learning about volcanoes in Iceland!

On the other hand, fortunately most education systems don't write kids off aged 11. They give them a chance to develop a rounded education so they have as many options open to them in the future as possible. Even if their parents don't see the value in Maths etc.

I find it strange that people are wanting to limit their children's learning. I had one child very keen on Maths and less keen on English - I encouraged them to try their very hardest and their grades improved. They will likely never need to be able to deconstruct a text etc. in their future career. But they are more confident for having tried and improved.

And why are so many young peopleparticularly girlsstill failing at this subject?

Partly because some people fail to see the relevance and importance: What good is going to come of this in her everyday future life?

Maths isn't just academic; it's incredibly useful. You benefit from maths everyday and not just because a few rare and talented people have applied it. It's everywhere! You don't know your daughter won't have use for it. Even if she doesn't use the specific calculations, it helps develop logical thinking.

Some of your other comments I agree with (one size fits all in our education system is dreadful) but maths shouldn't be reserved for only those deemed talented in the subject.

Most people need arithmetic in everyday life, not mathematics.

Based on that argument, why teach history, they don't need to know about Henry the 8th to go through life, do they? Or English literature - pointless.

Do I read posts on here just wrong. I thought the op was really quite measured in her post and now I am reading replies with right arsey attitudes in them. Also some schools do let you not do a language for gcses both my boys were allowed to drop it, they were encouraged to.

I use algebra and trigonometry ever single day- never would have expected to, never planned on having a maths based job. Found getting my qualifications HARD. Think long equations using the answers on the next long equation.

People that I deal with are always shocked when I say my job is maths based (a combination of maths/science/customer service)- especially so when I get my scientific calculator out 😅

Very, very glad I had a basic knowledge from school. I didn't get into what I do until my 20s, but it still helped.

@StoneofDestiny

Most people need arithmetic in everyday life, not mathematics.

You don't know what you need for your A-levels, degree or career until you're much older though.

Most kids study a subject (say Biology) then realise they don't want to study it further but might appreciate knowing what meiosis is as a general knowledge thing to store in the brain.

@Viciouslybashed

Do I read posts on here just wrong. I thought the op was really quite measured in her post and now I am reading replies with right arsey attitudes in them. Also some schools do let you not do a language for gcses both my boys were allowed to drop it, they were encouraged to.

I think this is what makes discussion so interesting - we take so many things for granted but really we all see things differently. I was genuinely shocked by the 'particularly girls' remark.

So you want her to do some kind of cut down syllabus because she's female. I think this is more about your experiences than your DD.

My dsis failed her GCSE maths twice and got in a state over her daughter having to take it. Thankfully my niece had a good teacher and she passed first time. Give your DD a chance. She may surprise you.

@BewareTheBeardedDragon

Agree that 'particularly girls' is deeply unhelpful and I'm fully convinced of the value of all children studying maths but really curious *@SimonJT* how algebra is used in baking and reading utility bills? I do both and am not aware of using algebra for either...

If you change quantities, or use the cup method you’re using algebra. Working out your utility bills does use algebra as you’re converting a unit of energy from one numerical unit to another.

So A = 11p and B =15p you use 50 units of electricty at cost A and 250 at cost B, working out your bill, or checking to see if putting the dishwasher on at night etc is algebra.

YABU, I hated maths at school, partly because they moved me around sets during the years leading up to my GCSE's, I ended up back in my original (and more appropriate) set in year 10 after a year or 2 of messing me around. I also felt it wasn't taught in a way I always understood but I now understand I work things out differently to many other people, a tutor could've helped me reach this conclusion sooner. That doesn't mean I shouldn't behave learnt those topics though, many of them do have real world applications. I studied a topic that isn't maths heavy (it's a humanities) but I need to be able to use algebra and simple statistics in order to do my job and so will many others without realising this is what they're doing. Even measuring a space for a new bed or carpet will need to use algebra. If she's struggling with the application not these then you need to work on that so she can better understand the process and importance of maths.

Fwiw, I still don't enjoy maths as a subject and would never chose to study it again but I understand the importance of it and the real world applications for these more complex areas of study.

I was about to put something similar to sparkly leprechaun - why bother to learn anything then? Chances are you don't really 'need' to be able to analyse a book, know any world history, geography, know any chemistry, physics or biology. Let's all just learn how to read a simple tabloid, add up a round of drinks, and nothing else.

Because the things that you've highlighted like addition subtraction and percentages are actually really low level. Like primary. Which will rule her out of a load of jobs. I, like many other people, do a job that doesnt use much maths day to day but I do need to understand mathematical concepts. I have had to use simultaneous equations to work out who owes what in a holiday where we wanted to give some people discounts for having a smaller room or sofa bed. I have had to use ratios when scaling down recipes to what I've got available.

In my opinion it's not the maths that is wrong it's that it's not related enough to every day life. People use algebra and equations every single day in things they use or things they do, and the teaching should relate to this. Though when you get a question in words in a real life relatable example, it then brings in another layer of complexity that people struggle even more with so in some ways if you make it more relevant, you make it harder.

To be honest I think her issues may be 1. A poor teacher who doesnt relate it to every day examples 2. Misogyny which you seem to be contributing to (girls are not any less capable at maths) and 3. Parents who are telling her directly or indirectly that what she is learning is pointless anyway. Sorry I know that's not what you want to hear and I know many people believe the same.

I saw a study once on people who are 'naturally' good at maths. The result basically showed that although there was some natural variation in the underlying skill, the main difference was the practice. Whether this is because people who enjoy it and understand it do more of it or not, it did suggest that the concept that people get maths or don't get it is a bit of a myth and like anything, if you do a shitload of practice you will improve

Think it is important to think remember you couldn;t do a psychology, sports science, economics or politics degree without decent maths.

Most universities wouldn't allow you on any degree course without a C in GCSE for a reason. Even in history you need to be able to handle numbers. Plus you couldn't teach or be a nurse.

I wouldn't want to rule all that out for any child at an early stage unless completely unavoidable.

I simply cannot understand the 'one size fits all' approach to the teaching of this subject
Doesn't every subject have a 'one size fits all', otherwise known as the syllabus?

Think fact op getting tutor for her dd shows she doesn't not think it's important.
I'm so hoping my dd passes her retake and never has to think about bloody maths gcse again. She has worked so hard.

Oh, I'll play Sexist and Classist Tropes in Education.

Algebra - calculating how much interest the Provident woman is convincing you is only 'a couple of pounds a week' is really, or how many cakes can be got out of the flour, sugar, butter and eggs in the cupboard without having to send the oldest two round the corner shop. Or how much developer and what vol to add to the peroxide to get banana yellow hair for toning without causing a chemical pixie cut.

Trigonometry - working out how to check if the corner is actually square before ordering vinyl flooring from the catalogue or whether you need to order the next length up to avoid having a wonky gap around the edge of the flat. Or how high to put the tripod to get the perfect shot for the Insta account that makes a thigh gap, small waist and thick butt appear out of nowhere.

Maths as a whole - because everybody can learn it, not just boys. Boys are not inherently more able at Maths because of penis ownership. Boys are told 'you can do it' and they are encouraged to keep going until it makes sense. So your DD doesn't need to give up work to look after the babies because she can only get a little shop job whilst her DP is an engineer. She could become an engineer herself. Or a teacher. Or an electrician, nurse, doctor, interior designer or anything the fuck she wants to be if she's developed Mathematical skills above that of an 11 year old.

All I ever heard as a kid from my mother was that I wasn't any good at maths, it was pointless teaching this stuff when I didn't understand it and wouldn't use it. Because I was a girl.

Strangely, not only did I end up working with electrical equipment and had to calculate various things so I didn't kill anybody or do them permanent damage, .I ended up teaching Numeracy to adults who had grown up with that sort of nonsense being put in their heads.

@MaskingForIt

God I hate this “maths is hard” narrative. No-one is proud of not being able to read, but this “girls find maths hard” attitude is depressing and pervasive.

No wonder she’s failing with an attitude like the OP’s as a role model.

Couldn't agree more, I find this so infuriating.

Daughter of a maths teacher here. I was not as good as her or my brother at the subject but managed to scrape through to AS.

When exactly should we decide that a child doesn't need maths but 'just' numeracy? What age should we decide that any STEM based role isn't for them?

You mentioned 'particularly girls' as if they shouldn't even be thinking of STEM? ....

Much of what you mentioned in your op are building blocks to some functional maths.

OP if your daughter is really struggling have you (or anyone else), thought of having her assessed for dyscalculia. If it was reading she was struggling with you can bet your mortgage that you would have had at least one reply mentioning dyslexia, but for some reason dyscalculia gets overlooked.

*Disclaimer. I have dyscalculia and anything with numbers is difficult.

YABU for perpetuating the myth that girls are not as good as boys at maths. You’re letting the side down and teaching your daughter that she’s inherently crap at it so she might as well not bother.

Get her to do 30 mins of Khan Maths a day. Mine do, I bribe them with phone credit (older one) and sweets (younger one). Both have gone from ‘not good at Maths’ to really good at Maths.

I use algebra a lot! If, for example, you wanted to work out what gross salary you'd need to get to a goal net salary you'd need algebra. Trigonometry to be fair I could never get my head around.

YABU

I almost can't be bothered to say why. Society needs engineers, scientists, architects, computer scientists and all sorts of careers that need maths. Some of those will be people like your DD.

Part of the problem with learning maths is the prevailing attitude that it's mostly pointless.