Maths ... AIBU?

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I was chatting with a colleague the other day; we have daughters in secondary school, and both are struggling with Maths. I am currently looking for a tutor for my daughter.
I simply cannot understand the 'one size fits all' approach to the teaching of this subject, and believe that it requires an overhaul. Why - when she does perfectly well in her other subjects - would my daughter need to learn about the equation of a line, trigonometry, algebra? What good is going to come of this in her everyday future life?
Rather, why can't she be taught mathematics related life skills? Lessons that revolve around addition, subtraction, percentages, bank statements, interest ... and all other useful elements of the subject.
Leave the serious study of maths to those who are gifted or even interested in it. And let the others ditch it in favour of the practical basics, where they might actually achieve something.
Why are they all still being taught the same things? And why are so many young people particularly girls still failing at this subject?
AIBU?

Why should they learn languages if they're never going to travel? Why should they learn English if they're not interested in books? Why should they learn history as it's all in the past? Why should they learn geography if they're only interested in their own country? Why should they do PE if they're not professional sports players?

Education is about opening doors, expanding horizons and giving kids opportunities to do things and be interested in things their parents would maybe not even consider. Every child has the right to a broad and balanced curriculum. If you believe your child cannot access mainstream teaching then that is a conversation you need to have with the SENCO at your school. Otherwise of course all children need to learn maths, challenge themselves and expand their minds.

I did maths and further maths at A level by the way and physics and even at that level it's really basic maths and anyone with a real talent at it can take it further at university.

There has been loads of research that shows that girls and women do worse at maths because of low expectations because of their sex.

ie females are not inherently bad at it but they lack confidence because they think they're not meant to be able to do it.

I got an A in maths GCSE (1990s) and took maths at A level.
However I do think it would be more useful to learn about maths relating to real life (budgeting, mortgages, interest, loans, credit cards etc) rather than some stuff that either you will never use again or if you do use them in a job there is likely a computer programme to assist!
I do use some (rather basic ) maths at work - mainly calculating the circumference of a circle, and doing calculations working out VAT, but the only time I've had to recall much other stuff is during home schooling or helping DD with her homework (year 10)

I agree OP. I would love to see trig and algebra removed and more useful things like budgeting say if you were out of work and had to survive for a while on JSA.

Or household budgets. You get a job earning x amount, your rent cost x, your electric and gas cost x, etc.

Much more useful than obtuse or acute angles.

As a mathematician who has daughters who are mathematical (one currently studying maths at uni and other doing maths and further maths A-level) I hate that people deride maths for girls.

Would you say "oh, boys really aren't so good at reading so let's stick to the basics?" or "boys tend to be more interested in woodwork, girls in cooking so let's only let them do those subjects" as they used to?

One of the problems dd has had has been people treating her as a "weirdo" because she likes maths and is a girl.

I'm sorry how are girls in particular failing at math? I feel you're projecting
I did a mathematics degree at university and the majority of people in my class were female
Agree with previous posters that the life skills you talk about are learnt at a far younger age.. they should be building on those skills at this point

There’s definitely some study I was told about in a staff meeting about how children do worse at maths when their parents have a negative attitude towards it.

Budgeting is not a Maths thing though, it is a basic life skill. Not saying schools shouldn;t teach that as well, but I think that is so basic that it is a sign of something slightly wrong if they haven't learnt it by 16 from their home life.

I use trigonometry and algebra on a daily basis at work. My daughter loves maths and sees how I use it. She wants to be an engineer or a physicist. So yep the harder stuff is important. Algebra really isn’t difficult, you can’t ask them to remove certain things from the curriculum just because you don’t understand how it relates to your adult life.

The budgeting stuff is taught in pshe lessons in my daughters school. They learn about taxes, household budgets etc. the other day they had a task where they were given a budget to source a family car. They had to go online and find a car, work out fuel consumption and insurance etc. they do cover this stuff but not in maths lessons.

Leave the serious study of maths to those who are gifted or even interested in it. And let the others ditch it in favour of the practical basics, where they might actually achieve something.

We do. England is one of the few countries amongst it's economic peers that makes post-16 maths optional.

Why are they all still being taught the same things? And why are so many young people particularly girls still failing at this subject?

Girls outperform boys at 16 years, by about 10%. (Where we have an issue is with post-16 female participation).

I don’t understand the algebra thing either. It’s a long time since I left school but I remember it being mostly about unknowns. For example; if x+4 = 10+8 then what is the value of x ? We also had to do quadratic (?) equations which were horrific. Something like 10+c = 6-d divided by 8+x + 2-m.

However, at home and life, there are no unknowns, if I’m baking cakes and need 200g flour to make 12 cakes, but I only have 100g flour, then I know I can only make 6 cakes. Division, not algebra?

Same with trigonometry, I don’t need to ‘work out’ the length of one side of a triangle; there are these wonderful inventions called ‘tape measures’ that do it for you.

I work in a role now where I need basic arithmetic, but nothing, thankfully more complex.

ViciouslyBashed Can she take Functional Maths? I'm pretty sure that completes the Maths requirement and it is just what it says on the tin: it's everyday Maths.

Yes, some children do struggle with maths. Your daughter may be one of them.

With most, it's a question of practice, confidence and teaching. So many children get put off because they think they should grasp concepts and processes immediately.

Not so. Not for most of us.

Think how hard it was to understand the markings on a weighing scale the first time you had to do it. Or to tell the time.

But now, after years of cooking, you do that as easily as breathing.

But ... some people really do struggle. Your daughter may be one of them. And Functionsl Maths may be an option for her.

Girls outperform boys at 16 years, by about 10%. (Where we have an issue is with post-16 female participation).

Sorry, this is misleading. I was rushing to make two point. To clarify, girls outperform boys at GCSE by 10%. In maths specifically, boys outperform girls, but by a tiny amount. The problem is that girls therefore have a greater choice of A Level subjects and tend not to choose maths.

I am s tutor and help a lot of students struggling with maths. Most of them can become perfectly competent mathematicians at GCSE level even if it isn't the most favourite subject for them.
It usually boils down to 2 things. Firstly they just need to see something slightly more often than average to grasp it and they haven't had any opportunity to do that in school and/or they have decided they 'can't do maths' and this mindset prevents them from persevering.
I think our current situation with Covid really highlights why it is important to have a reasonable grounding in maths (and science). You just need to read to coronavirus threads here ( with the exception of the stats threads) and you will see some people arguing that black is white because they just don't have a good enough grasp of statistics, aren't able to interpret graphs very well etc.
Maths ( and more than basic arithmetic) is important for all walks of life including journalism, business, politics and many others. It is important for understanding the claims of political parties and deciding how to vote.
Does anyone remember Michael Gove's statement that he wanted all schools to be better than average. I wonder if he felt he wasn't going to use the statistics he was taught at school.

YABU. It is not a one size fits all approach.

For starters there are two tiers of entry at GCSE, and those entered for Foundation (max grade a 5) do considerably fewer topics than those entered for Higher. Even within Higher tier, only those aiming for 8/9 will actually be taught the full syllabus.

Why not instead complain about English Language GCSE where they have done away with tiers of entry. Where kids who can read and comprehend modern English perfectly well and can write clearly to communicate, will struggle to do well if they can't spot alliteration or fail to thrown in a variety of punctuation, or use straightforward, simple, sentences?

@senua

I simply cannot understand the 'one size fits all' approach to the teaching of this subject Doesn't every subject have a 'one size fits all', otherwise known as the syllabus?

There are set texts in English and a curriculum of things that could appear in an exam for every other subject.

I'm not 'good' at Maths - but the one bit of Maths I am good at, and really love, is algebra. Because it's logical.

And that, really, is an argument for a wide breadth of subjects in GCSE Maths. You just can't tell which but a child will pick up and run with.

Long problems based on budgeting and addition would have driven me to a breakdown.

In fact, I think that's why I say I'm not 'good' at Maths.

I took Maths O level back when a large part of the exam was all about long, tedious addition and subtraction - no calculators; being trained for jobs where accuracy and diligence were key.

But, honestly, you just can't tell what children are going to find 'hard' or 'easy'. What they're going to live or hate with a passion.

It's funny the PP should rail against a 'one-size fits all' approach when, in fact, she is actually arguing for a foreclosing of breadth.

There were 3 times the girls to boys in my maths gcse top set class. I think I was the only one to go on to do maths a-level (and then degree) so it wasn’t to do with girls not being able to do maths, rather the negative way it was talked about in relation to girls.

And why is it maths in particular that people claim has no use in real life? I enjoyed most subjects at school but have never been required to discuss the princes in the tower, play netball, star in a play, write an essay on the last book I’ve read, decide whether part of a landscape is due to glacial erosion, write/speak Latin, make a sculpture, sew a tapestry, paint a portrait, dissect a frog....

I can understand how maths is difficult for some but please don’t minimise its importance. It’s the only constant in the universe, mathematical laws are incredible and fascinating. It’s optional past 16 years old, and the basic day to day tax/budgeting skills are taught in pshe lessons.
Yes I’m autistic and so is my daughter. We love maths as there is only a right or wrong answer! No grey areas.

If I want to chop down a tree and need to know if it will land on my house, trig can be pretty useful.
(Well, not me, but my Dad chopping down a tree and my Mum's rose bushes.)

Personally I find the math I learnt at school much more useful than several other subjects I studied at school

Algebra is incredibly useful for plenty of situations which require an element of planning/ management/ stock control etc, it's not just for mathematicians and engineers

*eugh my phone has autocorrected maths to math

It's mainly because you don't know which ones will be e.g. Scientist, finance, engineering ect various areas that usually need a good grounding in maths.