Maths ... AIBU?

[eatsleepread]

I was chatting with a colleague the other day; we have daughters in secondary school, and both are struggling with Maths. I am currently looking for a tutor for my daughter.
I simply cannot understand the 'one size fits all' approach to the teaching of this subject, and believe that it requires an overhaul. Why - when she does perfectly well in her other subjects - would my daughter need to learn about the equation of a line, trigonometry, algebra? What good is going to come of this in her everyday future life?
Rather, why can't she be taught mathematics related life skills? Lessons that revolve around addition, subtraction, percentages, bank statements, interest ... and all other useful elements of the subject.
Leave the serious study of maths to those who are gifted or even interested in it. And let the others ditch it in favour of the practical basics, where they might actually achieve something.
Why are they all still being taught the same things? And why are so many young people particularly girls still failing at this subject?
AIBU?

Statistics is also really useful for understanding all the covid info over the past year!

I struggled with Maths too .However my SD would help me .My own DS had a fabulous private Tutor .Maybe something like that would help your DD? TBH do we dumb down core subjects in case they dont suit everyone?

No because the numbers would be jumbled up in my head if it were more than 2.

A test of working memory is how many digits you can remember at once. The average is about 7 - it's why we chunk things like car registrations and telephone numbers.

Do you also have problems with remembering long lists of instructions (like if someone gave you directions?).

What part of converting pennies to pounds is algebra?

£ = 100p

It doesn't matter that you are using a £ sign, it could be an x or anything else. This is the basis of algebra you use a letter or a symbol for the number(s) you don't know.

Or go on the game show with 3 boxes and the prize behind one of them. You pick a box, the host opens another empty box. Now he asks you to stick to the box you chose, or switch to the other unopened box. What should you do for the best chance of winning

Always swap, the host knows where the prize is. Your chance of getting the right box with your fist choice is 1/3, but after the host has opened an empty box that changes. You would think it is 50/50 but it isn't. If you stick you have a 1/3 chance, but if you swap that changes to a 2/3 chance.

You might not win but your odds of winning are better.

Do you also have problems with remembering long lists of instructions (like if someone gave you directions?)

No I'm absolutely fine with remembering stuff like that I just have a problem with numbers.

Having taken up jewellery making, many years after leaving school I am finding myself having to brush up some very rusty maths that I never thought I'd ever need.

Never say never

I teach and am regularly faced with parents who are cross that their child has to learn something they find difficult, or do something that they don't want to do.

It comes as no surprise to me that op thinks her dd shouldn't have to persevere with something she finds hard.

And surely the 'why do they need to know that' applies to all subjects. I guess it depends whether you see education as expanding horizons or drilling for their future job. Maybe we should limit geography to map reading and finding Ibiza on a map too. Luckily, teachers see merit in helping children to keep their options open for as long as possible even if some parents are trying to shut them down.

I’ve never needed to know about Shakespeare yet I learnt it at school.

I’ve needed needed to know how plants photosynthesise but I learnt it at school.

I’ve needed needed to play hockey but I learnt it at school.

I’ve never needed to know about oxbow lakes or shanty towns in Brazil but I learnt it at school.

I’ve never needed to know what it was like for young men in the trenches in WW1 but I learnt it in school.

I’ve never needed to know that Buddhists follow the 8 fold path but I learnt it in school

I’ve never needed to know what the fuck a glockenspiel is but I learnt it in school.

I’ve never needed to know how to say “wo ist der Bahnhof” but I learnt it in school

I did need to know how to do maths though as I ended up in a scientific career after doing a physics degree, and now I tutor my niece in gcse maths

I think that both Maths and English needs to be split. They're both "academic" subjects rather than life skills and that's not good enough. There should be literacy and numeracy taught for all. Those who struggle need to be allowed to spend their time on the basics to master them. Those who do well should move onto the "proper" academic Maths and English.

Trouble at the moment is that however badly a pupil struggles, they are moved through the system onto more complex things that they don't have the "toolkit" to deal with.

In Maths, you're really never going to move on if you aren't solid in the basics of times tables, prime numbers, symmetry etc. It really is pointless trying to teach algebra to someone who doesn't know their tables.

I think that 11+ exams are a sensible "aim" for all as they're set to a "lifeskill" level in that they're relevant to all, i.e. including algebra at the most basic level. My "ideal" would be for pupils to aim for 11+ level first, whether that is aged 11, 13, 16 or 18, and concentrate on that. For those who "pass" at an early age, they move onto the more academic Maths/English streams.

Schools already do a lot of that kazzy. Our secondary school sets the children for maths so that they can progress at the appropriate pace, they can aim for Higher or Foundation papers for Maths GCSE, there are a range of small-group and 1:1 interventions in place for those who struggle. In English, pupils can skip English Lit and/or MFL to focus on functional English, and there are a range of qualifications in place apart from GCSE in both subjects.

I dislike the idea of telling children at a young age that they are only going to be taught functional skills/the Maths they're likely to encounter in everyday life, and are not up to studying anything more abstract. That really is very similar to secondary modern/grammar school thinking.

@fourminutestosavetheworld I dislike the idea of telling children at a young age that they are only going to be taught functional skills/the Maths they're likely to encounter in everyday life, and are not up to studying anything more abstract. That really is very similar to secondary modern/grammar school thinking.

But what is the point in demotivating a struggling pupil by moving onto more complex subjects that they've not got a hope of understanding because they don't have the basic skills required? That does more harm than good and is exactly what perpetuates the "I'm no good at Maths" mentality.

At my son's school, ALL Maths classes started being taught Trig at the same time, i.e. first week back after the Summer holidays at the start of year 9. That's the problem that some people are talking about - the "one size fits all" approach. I know that's what they were doing because they used the show my homework app and the school set the parameters to allow users to view all classes.

[quote Kazzyhoward]**@fourminutestosavetheworld* I dislike the idea of telling children at a young age that they are only going to be taught functional skills/the Maths they're likely to encounter in everyday life, and are not up to studying anything more abstract. That really is very similar to secondary modern/grammar school thinking.*

But what is the point in demotivating a struggling pupil by moving onto more complex subjects that they've not got a hope of understanding because they don't have the basic skills required? That does more harm than good and is exactly what perpetuates the "I'm no good at Maths" mentality.

At my son's school, ALL Maths classes started being taught Trig at the same time, i.e. first week back after the Summer holidays at the start of year 9. That's the problem that some people are talking about - the "one size fits all" approach. I know that's what they were doing because they used the show my homework app and the school set the parameters to allow users to view all classes.[/quote]
That sounds like a crap school then. All the schools I've come across (state comps) set pupils. With top set doing trig or complex algebra for example, while bottom set work on number lines or 4 times tables or whatever.

I think the vast majority of comprehensives teach that way. I'm surprised some don't.

"That does more harm than good and is exactly what perpetuates the "I'm no good at Maths" mentality."

Another thing that perpetuates this is low expectations from parents who think nothing of telling me, in front of their child, that 'they're rubbish at maths just like I was.' How can anyone be 'no good' at all Maths? What, rubbish at time, shape, reading graphs, literally everything? Unlikely but once you've implied that they are it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

And 'the basics' is exactly what is targeted in the lower sets and intervention groups.

You're quite right. Kids shouldn't have to do anything they find hard. No point at all in pushing them or helping them go beyond what they think they are capable of. Day 1 in reception they should be asked 'who likes maths?'. Those that don't like it should be allowed to opt out.

@Viciouslybashed

Do I read posts on here just wrong. I thought the op was really quite measured in her post and now I am reading replies with right arsey attitudes in them. Also some schools do let you not do a language for gcses both my boys were allowed to drop it, they were encouraged to.

That's a shame, languages are really useful. Even if it is a language you never end up using, the transferable skills you pick up are invaluable. I learned a considerable amount about English grammar when I went on a Welsh course.

In Maths, you're really never going to move on if you aren't solid in the basics of times tables, prime numbers, symmetry etc. It really is pointless trying to teach algebra to someone who doesn't know their tables.

I still don't know my times tables, and due tot he way my brain works I don't trust the odd ones I do know and have to multiply them in my head.

I'm in the first year of an OU maths degree.

@MaskingForIt

God I hate this “maths is hard” narrative. No-one is proud of not being able to read, but this “girls find maths hard” attitude is depressing and pervasive.

No wonder she’s failing with an attitude like the OP’s as a role model.

Someone here showing she is good at maths but absolutely shit at kindness. I find maths hard and yes, I admit it but I find kindness comes a lot easier.

@titchy That sounds like a crap school then. All the schools I've come across (state comps) set pupils. With top set doing trig or complex algebra for example, while bottom set work on number lines or 4 times tables or whatever. I think the vast majority of comprehensives teach that way. I'm surprised some don't. confused

I don't understand why there's so much variation. Surely state schools are following the same funding model, and working under the same rules/guidance as to what and how they teach?

My son's school had 6 forms per year. That translated into 6 Maths classes for GCSE years. Common sense would have suggested that was 6 different levels so that pupils could be placed in a group with another 30 pupils of pretty similar standard. Which would have allowed for the strugglers to be in a group learning the tables and number lines etc if that was their level. But no. Instead of 6 different sets. They had 3 sets for forms A-C and another 3 sets for forms D-F. So there were two lots of "top, middle and bottom" groups. That meant a very wide range of abilities in each of the 3 groups. To the extent that the "top" group was a mix of both foundation and higher level GCSE pupils and the "bottom" group was a mix of those who were expected to do fairly well at foundation level and those who really weren't going to get a grade at all.

Where is the sense in that? That's what people are talking about when they say the "one size fits all". These threads are always the same whether they're about a school, GP surgery or University. Posters come on with their personal experiences, usually of poor standards/poor practice, because they'd not be posting if they were happy! Then the staff involved come on and say what "they" are doing and how their organisation is getting it right, but of course, the staff from organisations who aren't doing things the right way won't be coming on to post here and admit their failings, would they?

At my son's school, ALL Maths classes started being taught Trig at the same time, i.e. first week back after the Summer holidays at the start of year 9. That's the problem that some people are talking about - the "one size fits all" approach. I know that's what they were doing because they used the show my homework app and the school set the parameters to allow users to view all classes.

Unless this is a grammar or private so there's little difference between top or bottom sets then this is insane.
Trigonometry is not even on the foundation paper
My son is at a comp and different sets do different topics so some kids have learned trigonometry but others never will.

I struggled with maths throughout my schooldays until I was able to drop it. The reason being that I missed a lot of primary schooling because I was always getting tonsillitis and suffered from sinus trouble as well, eventually had my adenoids and then my tonsils out. I wasn’t helped to catch up by my parents or teachers. My reading and writing did not suffer nearly as much as I was always ahead in those. At secondary school I was put in the O level stream despite the fact I was clearly not up to it. I eventually moved my self to the CSE class where I got a grade 3. I would undoubtedly have failed the O level.

@eatsleepread

I am actually better at maths now as an adult, than I ever was at school. This became particularly apparent during (lockdown) homeschooling, as I needed to learn the maths that my youngest had to do! So I take your point, but do think that life skills, experience and maturity can lead to us learning 'on the job', so to speak. You probably always had an aptitude for Maths, but what about those who really don't ...

I am still pro Arithmetic!

Scottish O Grade 1975 Arithmetic was separate for Scottish O Grade Maths. They were sensible in those days.

"Leave the serious study of maths to those who are gifted or even interested in it"

YABVU - Would this not therefore apply to other subjects?

Knowing that Curley's wife wore red lipstick to signify that she slept around has NOT helped me in everyday life, and I was not interested in the slightest. Same goes for learning about vikings, or the names of different styles of castle...

A good grounding in mathmatical principles certainly has helped me.

I agree my daughter never got maths . She failed her GCSE twice college took her without it and she did a more basic maths alternative. I can't remember the name maybe functional maths.
Without that she wouldn't have been able to go to uni and do her degree. Maths has nothing to do with her degree l don't know why she needed it. She's preficatly capable of adding and subtracting gets alone fine in life without algebra.

My son's school had 6 forms per year. That translated into 6 Maths classes for GCSE years. Common sense would have suggested that was 6 different levels so that pupils could be placed in a group with another 30 pupils of pretty similar standard.

Because to do this you need to be able to time table all of the maths classes for the year at the same time and have 6 maths teachers available at the same time.

You are also assuming there are 30 children with similar abilities across the board, it's not, it's going to be a bell curve.

So you will have a wide variety of understanding in the top set and in the bottom set, meaning those classes actually need more time.

@eurovisionsparkles

At my son's school, ALL Maths classes started being taught Trig at the same time, i.e. first week back after the Summer holidays at the start of year 9. That's the problem that some people are talking about - the "one size fits all" approach. I know that's what they were doing because they used the show my homework app and the school set the parameters to allow users to view all classes.

Unless this is a grammar or private so there's little difference between top or bottom sets then this is insane.
Trigonometry is not even on the foundation paper
My son is at a comp and different sets do different topics so some kids have learned trigonometry but others never will.

Basic trig is on the foundation paper!