Maths ... AIBU?

[eatsleepread]

I was chatting with a colleague the other day; we have daughters in secondary school, and both are struggling with Maths. I am currently looking for a tutor for my daughter.
I simply cannot understand the 'one size fits all' approach to the teaching of this subject, and believe that it requires an overhaul. Why - when she does perfectly well in her other subjects - would my daughter need to learn about the equation of a line, trigonometry, algebra? What good is going to come of this in her everyday future life?
Rather, why can't she be taught mathematics related life skills? Lessons that revolve around addition, subtraction, percentages, bank statements, interest ... and all other useful elements of the subject.
Leave the serious study of maths to those who are gifted or even interested in it. And let the others ditch it in favour of the practical basics, where they might actually achieve something.
Why are they all still being taught the same things? And why are so many young people particularly girls still failing at this subject?
AIBU?

The wider the syllabus, the greater a pupil's chances later on in life.

Career options in this country are becoming increasingly limited.

Privileged children of well connected parents can afford to work for peanuts in internships are shoo-ins for a lot of unadvertised positions, a lot of employers would sooner employ someone with experience and qualification from abroad, rather than employ someone from the UK who needs to be 'brought up to speed' and many employers are abusing apprenticeship schemes.

The better qualifications and the wider the knowledge, the greater the chances of a solid job. Any job.

I'm an archaeologist by training - arts subject. Trig is pretty damn useful when doing field work.

I've worked in health research - you need a lot more than primary school basics to be a data manager.

Stopping at primary school maths would be an incredibly bad idea for the vast majority of students.

Well I hated maths and felt the same as you. Went on to do 2 science degrees!

It's challenging which is a good life lesson. If you don't understand something, research, practice, maybe ask for help. Then you will understand it. Lots use maths in their jobs. Depends what job you do. Dh spends time helping DC with maths. If they don't get it he looks it up, explains until they do. It's harder than history say. But necessary.

A standard pass at maths GCSE is a grade 4.
Trigonometry and equation of a straight line and many algebra topics are grade 5+ topics.
Percentages, addition etc are all lower grade topics. These are also taught in GCSE foundation but mostly assumed knowledge in Higher.
Presumably if your daughter is being taught the harder topics, its because the school think she is capable of understanding it and get a grade 5. Some students are never taught trigonometry etc as it is too far above their ability.
Many students will go on to use this knowledge in a later job- not all but if she can get as high a grade she can it will open more options for her in terms of careers. There are many jobs that will require a higher GCSE grade.

It's not a great lesson to teach children that as soon as something is difficult they should give up on it.

Back in the day I went to a direct grant school.

We were in sets according to ability for both maths and French.

I disagree completely.
I hardly ever use any of the actual knowledge gained at GCSE, (I never need to quote Shakespeare, identify parts of a cell, list the details of hitler’s rise to power etc), but just because something doesn’t have immediate use doesn’t mean it isn’t worth learning for learning’s sake.
How depressing to sit in a lesson and think “I’ll never need this so what’s the point in knowing it at all.”

(Lord help me, I’ve become my mother)

@eatsleepread

I was chatting with a colleague the other day; we have daughters in secondary school, and both are struggling with Maths. I am currently looking for a tutor for my daughter. I simply cannot understand the 'one size fits all' approach to the teaching of this subject, and believe that it requires an overhaul. Why - when she does perfectly well in her other subjects - would my daughter need to learn about the equation of a line, trigonometry, algebra? What good is going to come of this in her everyday future life? Rather, why can't she be taught mathematics related life skills? Lessons that revolve around addition, subtraction, percentages, bank statements, interest ... and all other useful elements of the subject. Leave the serious study of maths to those who are gifted or even interested in it. And let the others ditch it in favour of the practical basics, where they might actually achieve something. Why are they all still being taught the same things? And why are so many young people particularly girls still failing at this subject? AIBU?

Are you serious? You want your DD taught “feminine math” skills that all pertain to balancing accounts me, budgeting, etc to run her husband’s household?

I am a aerospace engineer, a rocket scientist. That math which you dismiss as “useless” is what put GPS satellites in orbit so you can use a sat nav on your phone. It also means you can have a wireless, mobile phone to talk on in the first place.

Don’t clip your daughters wings and then wonder why she is a SAHM instead of flying. Get the math tutor. It’s not always bad student behind child struggling with maths it can be a bad teacher and definitely, parents like you who think math is useless don’t help either.

And why are so many young people particularly girls still failing at this subject?

A higher percentage of girls than boys achieve a pass in maths GCSE (above grade 4), although boys slightly outperform girls at the higher levels (grades 7-9).

My dd aged 11 in primary has been assessed and diagnosed with discalculia get your child assessed

The skills we learn in maths go beyond the topic: we learn to think, to apply our knowledge, to apply rules, to apply logic, to look for exceptions, all useful skills to have. We don’t know exactly what skills we need later in life so a broad foundation is valuable.
I think functional maths skills are also important : loans, interest, mortgages, budgeting etc perhaps as part of PSHE.

Presumably a quarterly utility bill is divided by 3 and a baking recipe might involve doubling so it makes twice as much food which is a form of algebra

Is that not simply multiplication or division? That's not algebra is it?

@SimonJT oh, thanks for that explanation. Never occurred to me that those types of calculations were algebra. I actually have a level maths but forgotten most concepts in the last 20 odd years
Still glad I studied it though.

@BewareTheBeardedDragon

Presumably a quarterly utility bill is divided by 3 and a baking recipe might involve doubling so it makes twice as much food which is a form of algebra

Is that not simply multiplication or division? That's not algebra is it?

Simple algebra is just simple multiplication or division.

Oh...
I guess the learning has stuck even if the names of the concepts have slipped away from me, since I'm quite comfortable doing fairly complex calculations where I need to irl

I have always said to Dh, tongue in cheek, well another day and I haven't used algebra. Dh who has degree level maths sent me a meme once that showed a child in class saying to the teacher "Sir, will I ever use algebra when I leave school?" and the teacher replies "No John you won't but the smart people in this class will." It still makes me laugh to this day. My degree is English Lit.

I volunteer in a primary, lots of parents openly say in front of their children that they hate maths and are no good at it. I would say by year 4 some children have decided they hate it and rarely put any effort into learning in the classroom. There is only so much help a teacher/LSA or volunteer can do within that time slot with 30 mixed ability children.

I do intervention work with groups of children for maths but we have to do it in the maths lesson. We cannot take them out of hymn practise or art to do the maths, the highers ups tell us that maths is not more important than other subjects and yet what do they test children on in year 6? Maths and English.

I think in primary school some children miss the basics and so it doesn't make sense later on when you try to build on this framework. I got a C at GCSE but know that I didn't know my times tables until I had to help my children learn them.

There are so many resources available online to help with maths but I think children who struggle need to go back to basics. Schools usually have a MyMaths or other system that a child can work through and should start at the beginning going over stuff they know from previous years. Tutors are good for identifying gaps in knowledge, if a child does a maths paper they should identify where they went wrong and then work on those things.

I have two daughters who both excel at Maths. The eldest is predicted an A* for her A level and it is her favourite subject. The youngest is equally as good but really doesn't enjoy it and doesn't push herself to do better as a consequence. My son is predicted an 8/9 for GCSE this year. I'm not sure it's a gender thing other than society assuming boys are better than girls

You receive a quarterly utility bill for £450. How much is it per month?

Arithmetic 450/3=150

Algebra x= monthly cost
3x=450
X=150

Do you remember in primary doing ? +3 =7 and having to work out what ? is

That is actually algebra

Have been reflecting on this - I am not sure they are doing enough in school and across society to explain what skills our children will need. I have made sure mine have done lots of coding, they do so little of that in school - really worrying given the direction of travel for future work.

I think at least if they have proper maths skills they have a bit of a chance with the logic skills etc. involved.

Maths is arguably the most widely useful subject taught at school!
A vast range of satisfying and well paid careers would be closed off to children who didn’t study it.
As an old radical feminist and retired doctor, I am appalled at the implication that girls are no good at maths and should drop it after primary school arithmetic.
My DD got straight As in her Advanced Highers (Scotland - roughly equivalent to A levels) for Pure Maths, Applied Maths, Physics, Computing and French, did a Maths degree at Durham and landed a high paid career in risk analysis at a major international bank’s head office. No evidence there that being a girl held her back!

[quote BewareTheBeardedDragon]@SimonJT oh, thanks for that explanation. Never occurred to me that those types of calculations were algebra. I actually have a level maths but forgotten most concepts in the last 20 odd years
Still glad I studied it though. [/quote]
Unless you’re really good at maths it really is a use it or lose it skill. I love maths, so I will often do maths for fun and my job is essentially maths, but I still have brain farts, I forgot how old I am (so that means i’m now officially old) I just couldn’t work out 2021-1988, maybe it was denial 😂

Far more people rely on GCSE (and A-level) maths day to day than they do English/History, so by that argument, we should be spending a lot more time on maths than we do.

I remember one poster suggesting that things were on the maths syllabus that were never used in real life, but that really isn't the case. KS1 English grammar on the other hand..... (I don't know anyone who needs to identify a fronted adverbial professionally)

Even if we look at jobs that are more popular for women they still need a good understanding of maths.

Childminder/nursery nurse
Nurse
Health care assistant
Teaching assistant
Shop worker (especially till staff)
Receptionist
Hairdresser
Beauty therapist

So not only does ‘girls are bad at maths’ exclude women from ‘mens’ jobs, it also excludes them from a lot of ‘womens’ jobs.

FYI I’m an actuary, so my maths skills have to be strong, I’m the only man on my team, my boss is a woman, her boss is a woman. At secondary school all but one of my maths teachers were women. The accountant for my rugby club is a woman, the financial advisor we saw after we got married was a woman.

Most people likely fall into the ‘good’ category for maths skills, but people are told they are rubbish at maths, maths is boring etc. If you think you can’t do something you’re generally shit at it, if you think you can do something you’re generally good at it. Being confident in your own abilities is hugely important.

If she does perfectly well in other subjects, that would suggest she has the capacity to access maths and has a decent reading age to interpret the questions. What she now requires is lots and lots of practise. The only way to get good at maths is to do maths.

The thread has explained brilliantly why maths is important, how it isn't one size fits all, and how budgeting skills should be taught at home.

As for the "when will I ever need it" line, you could apply that to 90% off stuff you learn in school. No one knows at the start of school what you will go on to become, therefore everyone gets a broad education and specialises later on.