DD’s friends changing gender at school

[AFS1]

My daughter is in yr 7. In the last month or so an increasing number of her female friends have changed their names to boys’ names and decided they want to be addressed as “he/him”. We’re up to at least 4, including her best friend who she’s known since they were in reception (and has never once demonstrated even the slightest hint of gender dysphoria). My daughter is desperately trying to respect the various requests but is becoming increasingly confused and upset by it all. She feels like she doesn’t really know her friends anymore and that she doesn’t fit in with them.

It very much feels like a phase to me, but it’s really beginning to have an impact on my daughter. It also feels like it’s getting out of hand. WIBU to speak to the school about it all? I don’t really know what they could do, but it just seems that maybe some work needs to be done around this issue.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this? I’d be really grateful for any advice about what to do and say. Thanks.

How does changing your name protect you from random men leering at you when you're in secondary school???

It doesn’t unfortunately but we know if you happen to grow big breasts you are more likely to get leered at than if you are flat chested with a boyish haircut.

@NiceGerbil that doesn’t make sense. I’ve said at a young age it’s simply a name change and not much else changes which is why OP and some other posters need not worry. So of course it doesn’t mean you are protected against all of those things but many (majority female) are offended by transgender people especially those who are m-f rather than f-m.

@toocold54

Child: call me a boy or I will kill myself Adults: you're a boy dear, of course you are Child: I've changed my mind now I'm non-binary. Call me non-binary or I'll take my hurt out on someone else Adults: yes, you're non-binary dear

Child: I genuinely believe I was born in the wrong body. My body doesn’t feel like my own and I’ve tried to cut my breasts off several times.
Adult: don’t be so stupid. You have a vagina therefore you must act like a girl and you will be called by your girly name and nothing else. Now suck it up like I had to do and get on with it.

Eh? Nobody is saying they must "act like a girl". But not acting like a girl never stopped anyone seeing and treating me as one so I'm not sure what you think that is going to achieve.

@toocold54

How does changing your name protect you from random men leering at you when you're in secondary school???

It doesn’t unfortunately but we know if you happen to grow big breasts you are more likely to get leered at than if you are flat chested with a boyish haircut.

Yes but this is precisely my point. The female sexed body is the cause of it and that I can't change.

Anyway it's been interesting - if frustrating- talking to you.

Current debate aside, I cannot believe that there are people so lacking in empathy that they can’t understand why an 11/12 year old might find it a little confusing to have 4 long term friends’ identities change and have a feeling of not knowing them.

It is entirely possibly to accept that as a valid response, and provide support to her, without denying the rights of her friends to identify as male. I’ve never had a close friend/family member come out as trans, but I imagine there is a whole heap to process when someone you know and love is gone and replaced by a different identity. You can feel that way and still be supportive.

Maybe I was just very lucky, but I'm always surprised when posters on these types of threads write about how awful puberty is for girls. When I was that age (early 40s now), there were some embarrassing moments and some natural worries, but I don't remember feeling traumatised by puberty. I was actually excited when my period started! I looked forward to growing up and becoming a young woman, dating a boyfriend, and so on. I don't remember feeling that men were leering at me. None of my friends ever seemed worried about puberty, either, from what I could tell.

If girls are feeling that bad about the approach of womanhood, I think they must be receiving some bad information from social media and the world at large.

I'd guess that for most of these girls, it has more with trendiness and wanting to be different than fear of becoming a woman.

OwlBeThere I am sorry your child is getting verbal abuse.

Child: I genuinely believe I was born in the wrong body. My body doesn’t feel like my own and I’ve tried to cut my breasts off several times.

Keep up, toocold. Being born in the wrong body is no longer the correct analogy, and mermaids have denied ever saying it was. And if they DID say that, they didn’t mean it to be taken literally. Apparently.

I understand why affirming disturbed children may seem like the correct approach in the short term, but lying to them does them no favours. Children are less likely than adults to fully appreciate that they can never change sex, but pretending that they can will foster mistrust when they realise the truth.

Why is it so hard to just listen to teenagers about what they want to be called and what pronouns they want to use?

Okay, your daughter finds it confusing, and when she slips up she gets called out on it. Good. That's how people learn. We all need reminders now and then.

but many (majority female) are offended by transgender people especially those who are m-f rather than f-m

toocool the world can be brutal to trans males as well, who, if they are attracted to men will not be accepted into the gay community.

The post below was from a link for a gay forum posted on the other recent thread. The posters were discussing their horror at transmen entering their male spaces.

It's a fucking MALE sauna for dick + dick activity.
YOU AREN'T A GAY MAN UNLESS YOU HAVE A DICK AND HAVE DEALT WITH DICK-RELATED (REAL / VIOLENT) HOMOBPHOBIC STRAIGHT ASSHOLES.
FUCK OFF PRECIOUS STRAIGHT BUTCH GIRL.
—If you do not have a COCK you cannot ride this rollercoaster.

Lying to children sets them up for a disillusioned adulthood.

Smileyaxolotl1

"To be honest I have been educated on Twitter by people like the wonderful trans man Scott Newgent."

Just taken a look at Scott Newgent. He is brilliant.

quillette.com/2020/10/06/forget-what-gender-activists-tell-you-heres-what-medical-transition-looks-like/

It's a craze for many of these preteens and teens. Some of these kids will be gender-questioning and really struggling with it, but many are simply joining in. A lot of it is the usual adolescent angst dressed up in new language, and a lot of it is playing out teen-to-teen, not under the careful guidance of a responsible adult. Of course!

I was reading a forum the other day, trying to understand all this better, and one teen was asking, is it possible to use pronouns "she/him/their" (as in, "can you pass him their cup of tea? She asked for milk and sugar.") And another replied, "sure! That's the great thing, you can have whatever pronouns you like." There was NO conversation WHY in the same sentence three different pronouns referring to the same person made any sense at all.

The next post was a teen asking about various gender identities, and the replies were fascinating, they read very naive and, dare I say it, quite cute. (Reminded me of when my 12-year old self was trying to decide if I fancied David S more than Richard T.) The reply I "liked best" explained that after trying out between various identities (many labels being thrown around here, like demigurl and agender) this poster had concluded they were gender fluid "but I'm always definitely 30% girl." How on earth was that measured?! Pretty sure no counsellor has come up with a formula to measure your % of girl or boy yet.

Many of these kids appeared to be identity shopping, exploring new ideas, looking for fashionable labels for themselves and the behaviours, clothing, language and hairstyles, internet hangouts etc that belong with the various identities. They have fun chatting about it, honestly. There is often no sign of emotional maladjustment, no true dysphoria or distress, no mention of counselling. The forum I read had bizarrely inane comments on the gender identities chosen like - "that one has a really nice flag" and so on. On one hand it is great these kids have a free space to chat about this stuff, but you read it and it just sounds like loads of young teen girls walking round the shops together. Straight and birth-gender acceptance is boring, frankly.

Anyway, if this is what is going on with your 7s i can understand your DD feeling left out.

My advice? If she's not into this yet, help her. Equip her with some language so she can join in the chatter. Have a look at some websites with her, and have a giggle at the people who identify some days as a rainbow, and think about some of the language and the ideas behind this. Allow her to think critically about what all this means. Her body is changing, or will be very soon. What DOES it mean to be a girl, to be a woman? How WOULD you know when you feel like a boy? What if a boy you fancy suddenly comes out as a trans girl, does it mean you are a lesbian? What if your friends are starting to judge you because you aren't gender-questioning? Explain that if you are a girl who fancies other girls sometimes, well you might be a lesbian or bi, but it is perfectly normal to have raging crushes on members of either sex as you ride the rollercoaster of pubescent hormones. It's also perfectly normal not to fancy ANYONE at this age, and it doesn't mean you'll grow up to be agender or asexual. If you want to dress differently to your friends, or wear your hair differently, you absolutely should. If you want to follow the crowd so you don't feel left out, well that's okay too. Messing around with an insincere gender identity isnt too serious, and you could have some fun with it and really think about these issues of what it actually MEANS to be gendered, and what the lived experience feels like.

I would certainly be encouraging her not to take this to heart too much, and not to feel she has to choose an identity and stick with it permanently (Au contraire, the fashionable thing is to change your gender around.)

It's always sad when friends change and grow away from us in adolescence, and it's disconcerting when you are not sure who your tribe is any more, and you can't contribute to the conversation very much. So give her some education, help her to think critically, encourage her to observe and not judge, let her decide for herself if she needs to join in with all this and support her through it. Don't promise her that her friends will emerge the other side same as before, but let her know that it will all turn out okay.

I definitely would NOT go to the school and find out what's going on. I'd be checking what internet sites these girls are visiting what forums they are chatting on, what apps they are using. Then I'd be monitoring the heck out of what my DD views, so I can keep pace with her and help her navigate a path through this in whatever guise she prefers - her authentic self, whatever that is at any moment, or an assumed identity to help her blend with the crowd a bit better.

There is now, sadly, massive social contagion for young females.

Interesting to watch 'the town that caught Tourettes'.

AFS1 please encuorage your dd to take all these changes with a pinch of salt. Her friends are still her friends, they may go on about things that concern them, and that could be overwhelming and boring for any child whatever someone else is talking about a lot.

It is difficult to get used to new names and new pronouns, and she may find it hard at times but hopefully she can just manage this time.

Friendships do change a lot over time. Some of your dd's friends will change in terms of losing some friends and making new ones.

If I were in your shoes I would just encourage her to be as normal as possible with the friends. Use their chosen names and pronouns when she can because to not do so will alienate her - and that is not in her interests.

If she wants to talk to you about it, then, of course, be open to discussing things with her.

Why is this happening now, I think it is because of the internet. It is a communication thing, and a social contagion thing.

Maybe now people feel this is an option and have felt it was not in the past. Personally, I feel biological sex is a very important and defining and many of these young people will change their minds as they grow older. So things may not always be like this for your dd.

I would also say, much as I do not think women, or girls, always need to be nice or kind, that being kind, using the names and pronouns as requested will be good for your dd and not single her out.

As the friends change their minds, she can be a good friend, make new friends and hopefully not be affected by all this.

@PossiblyGayJane

Why is it so hard to just listen to teenagers about what they want to be called and what pronouns they want to use?

Okay, your daughter finds it confusing, and when she slips up she gets called out on it. Good. That's how people learn. We all need reminders now and then.

Teenagers can ask to be called a different name if they want. But they are not telling people what pronouns they use personally. They are telling other people what pronouns other people have to use whenever they are talking about them. That is buying into the abusive idea that people have to change their language about people who aren’t even present. It’s a compelling of language. It’s gaslighting. The OP’s daughter’s right to exist in a world where she can accurately describe the world around her - including the sex of people she sees and knows - is just as important as the rights of anyone else. I will not have my daughters compelled to lie about the world.

There is also never a good explanation as to why and when third person pronouns in English language became something to describe the gender identity of a person rather than their sex. When did this happen? Was there a vote? Who decided? Why must I or anyone else comply? Why must any of us change how we have the described the people of the world for our entire lives, even if that life is only 12 years old? I haven’t given my permission for such a societal change and I do not consent. It is damaging to my mental health, that of my children and of others to be compelled to walk on egg shells referring to male people as “she” and female people as “he” on the off chance one of those people hears about it from a snitch.

No child should ever be “called out” for accurately sexing a person. To do so is abusive to that child. To advise the OP, I would provide them with a safe environment where they can speak the truth, speak to truth, and figure out ways to navigate the world where speaking the truth will see you abused and “called out” by abusive adults. I would discuss why these girls are falling victim to this contagion and how it’s possible to be supportive without relinquishing her principles and biological reality.

@AFS1

My daughter is in yr 7. In the last month or so an increasing number of her female friends have changed their names to boys’ names and decided they want to be addressed as “he/him”. We’re up to at least 4, including her best friend who she’s known since they were in reception (and has never once demonstrated even the slightest hint of gender dysphoria). My daughter is desperately trying to respect the various requests but is becoming increasingly confused and upset by it all. She feels like she doesn’t really know her friends anymore and that she doesn’t fit in with them.

It very much feels like a phase to me, but it’s really beginning to have an impact on my daughter. It also feels like it’s getting out of hand. WIBU to speak to the school about it all? I don’t really know what they could do, but it just seems that maybe some work needs to be done around this issue.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this? I’d be really grateful for any advice about what to do and say. Thanks.

Wow, that's a lot. With two school age kids, don't even know one who has, never mind a whole swathe. Just shows every experience is different What is it you're specifically concerned about? Because others have changed their names, you're worried it's catching? Surely if your daughter had 4 friends saying something, they'd be secure enough in themselves to say differently if need be. If not, that's what you need to be worried about.

NotBadConsidering well said.

We have a trans person in the family and I do not go around 'calling people out' if they 'misgender' that person. But I do (now) consistently use the chosen pronouns.

I wouldn't want adult friends to misgender the child, and so we would avoid that person if that was what they did. But it doesn't mean I couldn't be friends with them, I would just be protective of the child.

Likewise the OP has to be protective of her child.

One thing, of course, is that using the chosen name and/or pronoun doesn't necessarily mean you think that person is the sex or gender they are identifying as, it just means you are using that name or pronoun. Not sure if that helps to explain it or not.

@backtowasteanotherhour

Maybe I was just very lucky, but I'm always surprised when posters on these types of threads write about how awful puberty is for girls. When I was that age (early 40s now), there were some embarrassing moments and some natural worries, but I don't remember feeling traumatised by puberty. I was actually excited when my period started! I looked forward to growing up and becoming a young woman, dating a boyfriend, and so on. I don't remember feeling that men were leering at me. None of my friends ever seemed worried about puberty, either, from what I could tell.

If girls are feeling that bad about the approach of womanhood, I think they must be receiving some bad information from social media and the world at large.

I'd guess that for most of these girls, it has more with trendiness and wanting to be different than fear of becoming a woman.

Well yes of course people have different experiences.

I also think, from reading on here, that the level of street harassment and that stuff depends on where you live.

I don't understand your post really. I accept that how it was where I grew up was different to your experience.

Surely you must know things vary?

I mean just off the top of my head.. In three towns were child grooming has been going on, on a massive scale. For years and still is. Girls as young as 12. You accept that happened and still does I assume.

The recent reports of sexual assault and rape in schools. That's also true, I don't think you'd disagree?

I started getting shit when I was about 12.
My DDs both started puberty 8.5. Men have been looking at my younger DD for, a good while. A year or more. She's 11. She still plays with toys. She's not looking forward to getting a boyfriend! She's a kid.

When you express your surprise what are you saying? Why post that the way you did if not to imply doubt at the honesty of other posts?

'If girls are feeling that bad about the approach of womanhood, I think they must be receiving some bad information from social media and the world at large.

I'd guess that for most of these girls, it has more with trendiness and wanting to be different than fear of becoming a woman.'

Given all the posts on this thread. Many of which are very personal.

That's your take away?

Yes girls have in the past and continue to get messages from the world at large. Depending on where you live, they can take a range of messages.

The messages will differ- whether you're in Iran or Sweden or Mexico or England or Saudi Arabia etc etc.

But yes of course there are messages from society about what your role is, how you can expect to be treated, what is acceptable etc etc.

And I don't get how you can read posts about girls being ogled as soon as they get boobs, irrespective of age. And say it's a fashion not to like it :/

Question though.

You can't say that changing 'gender' for all purposes is ok in some instances and not others.

If it's the case that school children can change gender and be accepted as that gender at school (changing/ bogs etc) then you can't say that stops at X age.

And even then it doesn't work.

How many non binary females, or those who identify as boys. Want to go in the boys toilets, change for swimming with them?

How many non binary males, or those who identify as girls. Want to use the girls toilets, change for swimming with them?

I have no idea tbh apart from a couple of things from the USA where the girls complained and got told to STFU.

And then sports.

And then adults.

If trans boys are boys then they should be changing with the boys. Who in their right mind would enforce that? I wouldn't.

So is the stuff mixed sex, mixed gender? Neither, both? Choose?

Where does the line go.

It's also trending at DD's school at the moment, especially agmost the girls. It's not cool to be straight, your identity defines your friendship group, a lot of names changing (yes they cant make up their mind what name and none of them are real names!) and identity changing announced on social media.

I am just glad my DD currently identify herself as lesbian so she doesnt get told by her friends that I am a bad mother because I won't let her take puberty blocker.

@Talkwhilstyouwalk

It's a bit like when one child in the class is poorly, half the class decide they are feeling poorly too....

They are not all transgender. It's almost certainly a phase but no doubt very confusing....they teach them young these days!

Love how you put that. It's so true!!!

I remember growing up when kids were just kids and I was a tomboy.. Didn't think I wasn't a girl though I just didn't like girly things.
Now kids are forced to think about sex and gender from a young age for showing the slightest differences, at the most influential time of their lives. I think there is going to be a generation of confused kids, some made to undergo transition and then coming out the other side full of regret for their lost childhood.

ust shows how many out there feel this way

Yeah, I just don't believe that. Maybe if everyone stopped banging on about it so much, children wouldn't be convinced into thinking because they want short hair and like joggers, they must be a boy, or if they fancy painting their nails and growing their hair long, they must be a girl.
Your attitude is dangerous, and their are going to be a lot of children with serious mental health issues when they become adults and realise they gelled a trend that can never be reversed, and a load of gaslighting adults allowed th to do it.

There’s a really good debate on This Morning (watch it on YouTube) between a psychotherapist and Munro about this.

I think part of the problem is whenever you try and express an alternative view you are jumped on and told you are transphobic

Trans is en vogue at the minute with young people. I reject gender stereotypes I always have, I’ve always worn and done what I wanted even if it was against the grain. Doesn’t mean I identify as a man, just I’m not governing by social ideals.

I agree with the previous poster where it’s an attention thing sometimes, making a big announcement etc and the unfortunately getting referred

apparently if ni medical pathway is started almost all children spontaneously go back to their original gender but once they start puberty blockers most medically transition.