to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography? II

[Judy1234]

Continuing the previous thread - people's sexuality varies hugely and what some people think is disgusting is good fun for others. It's impossible to generalise and say XYZ practice is wrong or repugnant and I agree with the posts at the end of the other thread that porn often just reflects what people do. Obviously you pick where your own interests lie and are glad human beings are diverse.

I won?t defend a point I never made. I never equated paedophilia with porn, although it is an offshoot of porn in itself, just a different niche market.

And the whole question of consent is also central here. Consent is usually something defined from a male perspective, especially in law, which is why there is a lot of confusion about it in rape prosecution policy. I am working on a paper about this problem at the minute.

Porn being very addictive, I don?t think it would be wise for an unsupported person to wade in in the name of research. Porn investigators are very closely supported to make sure they don?t become desensitised to the stuff they see ? as is common with a lot of porn usage. Hence the problem with chronic users defining what is extreme and what is not.

An analogy to heroin or other very addictive drugs might suffice ? you don?t need to get addicted to see the harm it inflicts on people, families and society.

We are sexual beings, and porn exploits our proclivity to desire sex in the same way manufactures of salty, fatty sugary foods do. We have evolved to seek out these foods because of their high nutritional value, but too much of them is anti-adaptive. The same can be said of sex addiction. There is a logical middle ground that has nothing to do with being anti-sex, but an objective observer in how porn can exploit human sexuality and send it down a road of desensitisation, addiction and exploitation of the consumer, not even the people involved.

As for links to the studies, you won?t find that particular study in an online paper but published in this book. You can get a shorter paper online but it doesn?t contain all of the data.

As for the rest, I have spent the last 5-6 years studying this, so I could post my whole library to you, but I?m not sure how far you?d get through it.

And I think we can be sure that there is no art in porn, erotica maybe..it;s interetsing in a cultural sense, not artistic

.

there is nothing degrading in watching people enjoy sexual activity.

there may be scenes that you would find uncomfortable to be participating in but thats the joy of porn. you can use it to spark your own imagination, to fantasise without actually having to go through with it.

there are fringes of the sex industry where women are persuaded to take part in deliberatly degrading and humiliating scenes. this is a particular genre of pornography and yes i would rather it didn't exist but i also accept that the performers in these films are paid to take part, are legally responsible for their own decisions and are able to say no if they do not want to.

i find pornography quite empowering actually. like teh strippers that explain it as being very controlling of men. by showing their body they have the full attention of all the men in the room, they are being paid just to have men look at them as they are that beautifull.

Elizabetth I am intrigued to know how a women who feels she is an object if a man dares to desire her can have an exciting and fulfilling sex life. It baffles me.

I get off on knowing my dh wnats to shag my brains out because he desires me, because he wants to do things to me. And because we are consenting adults we discuss what we like and what we don't like. Then when the sex is over we have a healthy and loving and respecftful relationship.

Sex does not always have to be satin sheets and roses. It can be down right dirty

Yeah, the thing is if he'd been a chef the worst he could have done to Linda Lovelace was get her to chop vegetables if he wanted to exploit her within his industry.

Him being a pimp meant she was raped and gang-raped; and then orally raped to make a film that millions of people have watched and got sexually excited over.

Getting aroused from a woman's rape has to be at least in the top ten sickening things in our world. Can you imagine what it would have been like for her knowing that so many people had enjoyed watching the crimes committed against her?

With regards to women in the industry a tiny handful of women doesn't make the industry any less male-dominated any more than handfuls of women in any other industry do the same thing. The difference with pornography of course, is like I keep saying, men have commoidified women and buy and sell them in porn.

"I get off on knowing my dh wnats to shag my brains out because he desires me, because he wants to do things to me. And because we are consenting adults we discuss what we like and what we don't like. Then when the sex is over we have a healthy and loving and respecftful relationship."

Not really sure what your relationship with your dh has to do with the transaction in porn where women are used and sexually objectified by strange men (johns) in order that they can imagine they are the ones f*cking her. Unless you think that after they have watched her in porn they have loving and respectful relationships with the women they watch. That would keep porn performers very busy indeed.

"I don't know why but it always creeps me out when men talk about their female partners' sexual proclivities. Especially when amazingly enough it coincides so perfectly with what they like."

eh? That's not true, I don't like anal sex much, i find it too painful - that's giving not receiving. However, if my partner wants to do it then fine, if she also wants to give me a blowjob afterwards then that's fine too, I don't force or make her do those things.

Of course it must coincide with what I like at least in some way! It's not a fun experience to 'sit' through an hour of S&M when you hate it. that's what being together and sharing is all about.

These women do get paid ... and apart from a few cases, they can say NO.

i know a woman whose top fantasy is rape. obviously it is controlled but she has actually asked her partner to rape her on many occasions.

its nto just a male thing elizabeth. women can be just as sexually charged as men.

i think the mistake you are manking is assuming all women feel the way you do. that sex is somehow dirty or wrong.

i like nothing more than walking through a bar and knowing that the men find me atractive (ok its been a while) and wanting me sexually.
i dont feel objectified i feel empowered and much more confident.

You keep telling yourself that jofe, even while the evidence mounts up proving the exact opposite.

Who here has seen Deep Throat?

Who here has seen Animal Farm?

Stippers are not porn actresses. There is no public penetration in stripping

Porn is not sex, mamazon. Porn is not sex.

The female performers are paid to pretend they are enjoying themselves, although sometimes its obvious that they're not (see the article by Robert Jensen I linked to and also the young woman's experience appearing in Bang Bus).

Elizabeth

(I am female by the way!)

"Women see porn and they seem themselves as the objects to be used and to please men (a very basic example of this is the numbers of women getting Brazilian waxes - a direct result of what porn actresses are expected to do to themselves)."

Most women tend to the hair in their pubic region (and their face, arms... all bleedin over for that matter) in one way or another and most of them have probably never even seen porn.

Women beautify themselves for other women NOT for men. It's the women who make the remarks round the swimming pool if a few stray pubes are hanging out or your legs haven't been waxed!

I think you'll find there has been a rise in women getting pubic waxes because more women have disposable income and it is more available.

"Men see themselves as the protagonist in the film (it's why they keep calling it a "fantasy" because they fantasize being him)."

I have been known to watch porn with my fella and I've found myself fantasizing that I'm the one being F*ed so don't put it all on the men out there.

You obviously have very strong opinions (as many other people do) but the word "porn" doesn't always mean someone is being mistreated and it is not to blame for all the sick people out there

I saw the documentory about the actress in Animal Farm - didn;t see the Lovelace documetory but it doesn't tell a pretty story I gather.

Have seen the Annabelle Chong story and that is very depressing too. There was a great documetory follwoing a british girl to hollywood to do porn a few years ago - again, pretty awful.

Porn is not degrading to ALL women.

There are thousands of women who make incredible amounts of money in porn. There are thousands more who put themselves through uni by stripping/lap dancing. There are thousands of Feminists who find porn to be empowering, as it gives the woman complete control over her sexuality and how she portrays it. It can make the woman the controller of the relationship, and the man subservient.

All kinds of women from all walks of life make porn. This myth that they had no where else to turn, and it's teh lowest of the low is utter crap.

but i would imagine porn actresses enjoy the fact that there are a great number of men at home masturbating over the thought of sleeping with them.

a great number more just really enjoy sex and so may as well get paid for it.

stop puttng women into this weak, powerless pigeon hole.

Elizabetth,

You seem to be assuming that all women are involved in porn not because they want to be.

I understand that some women are involved in porn due to partners etc, but some women actually want to do it.

Just because you don't want to do it, does not mean that no other women should either.

men don't necessarily like women without hair anyway..so i think that is a bit of a red herring

like a few other arguments

tho i'm sure they don't actually turn them down if they've got that far

Yup I saw the film I think you are talking about MT, she got raped by Max Hardcore almost as soon as she got into his house. He just lifted up her skirt and penetrated her. Horrible.

Then later on when she ran away from the porn set where she was being choked on his penis, the camera crew who were following her had to help her get away, while Max Hardcore told her she was letting the side down by not wanting to be gagged by a penis and tried to guilt-trip her into staying for more abuse. The state she was in it seemed like she'd been raped again, but that old "consent" form would mean she'd never be able to press charges.

Women do fantasise more about being the object, the man the 'doer' as it were.

I do think objectification is part of healthy sexual congress and that many, if not most women onjectify themselves as you describe PK.

But the 'object' that is portrayed in porn is not really the woman so much as a skewed idea of female sexuality; the woman channeling and displaying male sexuality, having no discriminating bias, which all women do, on average, cross culturally.

Yes the female porn actresses are paid to pretned they are enjoying themselves.

The Male porn stars are paid to pretend they are enjoying themsleves too.

Or are you insinuating men always enjoy a shag, but the women doesn't so she has to pretend then she is being degraded?

How sexist can you be?

"There are thousands more who put themselves through uni by stripping/lap dancing."

And if that's supposed to be an empowering thought then the situation is even more dire than I imagined. How depressing.

Not very much porn does actually show real female sexuality, just the inverted version above DrN. That is less than empowering and it is that way because by and large the market is driven by male consumers not female ones. A biologicaly 'correct' version of female sexuality will always be a small market therefore

"Sex isn't something men do to you. It isn't something men get out of you. Sex is something you dive into with gusto and like it every bit as much as he does."

Nina Hartley

I some cultures Dr Northerner, there is no concept of femnale orgasm. Just an interesting aside.