to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography? II

[Judy1234]

Continuing the previous thread - people's sexuality varies hugely and what some people think is disgusting is good fun for others. It's impossible to generalise and say XYZ practice is wrong or repugnant and I agree with the posts at the end of the other thread that porn often just reflects what people do. Obviously you pick where your own interests lie and are glad human beings are diverse.

I don't buy the argument that you need to see porn to debate it - not least of all because the issue is not simply about what is on a particular piece of footage. Also, how much do you need to see before you have a valid enough viewpoint? How varied a range?

Elizabetth,
Some porn is because the women wants to do it, it is not necesseraily degrading to that women, and not all women who are in these videos are doing it because they are on drugs/have had problems in their past.

Some women want to do it

I don't think the only point made here has been about whether or not all women working in porn are victims. That is to oversimplify the wider motivation, distribution and impact of porn.

In an acedemic sense you would have to see it. But you can also read a trascript or review and get the jist. We aren't talking about artistic interpretation here!

It is easy to condemn peodophillia witout seeing it - it is ilegal.

Porn is not.

Have you got a link to those studies, MT?
I think they would add to the debate.

E, ever since I have found MN very little.
This place is more addictive than porn!
I will tell you more about myself in a second
but let's first discuss the issue in hand -
it is crucial to your op!

Elizabeth, do you know what ;-) means? it means the last bit was tongue-in-cheek.

"What porn does is teach men to despise women and view their bodies as objects. How do you know the women you are ogling like it BTW?"

No it doesn't. In the present climate as many women as men treat the opposite gender as a sex object... have you been out to a night-club recently or read the female equivalents of FHM like Cosmo?

Porn was a great education for me sexually, I know more ways of having sex than just the missionary position thank you. It gave me the knowledge that there are many ways to have sex which are both exciting and pleasurable for both partners. Have you ever had anal sex? It seems not as I have only ever removed my penis once to find that it had any sort of faecal matter on it, and my partner admitted she needed a poo! I personally will do anal sex if my partner wants it, and it has been my partners who have asked me to do it, I don't ask as i prefer other ways tbh.

I don't deny that there IS some horrible stories regarding the porn industry about and I am not about to justify any of them. They disgust me as much as the next person. But then exploiting child-labour en-masse for the production of cheap clothing for the west is disgusting too... Do you shop at GAP or Primark? I don't watch porn that shows things I don't like, such as multiple penetrations, women being restrained etc... it doesn't excite me. I tend to watch porn WITH my partner in any case, so it has to be mutually erotic. It's not wank material for me. It's also a good way at exploring sexual fantasies with your partner - as in talking about them with the possibility of indulging them.

Anyway, some links for you -

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenna_Jameson
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suze_Randall
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christie_Hefner
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tera_Patrick

etc...

Stop being so English! You are repressed! ;-)

MT, in the case of the op we are!!

We CANNOT call something gang rape
when there is NO gang present and
there is NO rape going on.

In a very abstract sense you might be right, MT,
but we have long left the abstract nonsense behind
and are now talking specifics.

Without specifics this 1200 post debate will simply
go around in circles.

Good post zebedee

Whilst people are buying porn - be in dvd's, magazines or online - it is never going to be made illegal.

And the main problem in this thread (imo) is that people are suggesting that all porn is bad, when in reality loving couples have taken photos of videod (sp?!) themselves.

"Linda Lovelace was clearly a troubled woman suffering from terrible domestic violence. Unfortunatley domestic violence happens all over the world, and I don't think it can be tarred with the same brush as porn."

It wasn't domestic violence he was a pimp who pimped her out to other men. Her first experience of prostitution was a gang rape he organised in order to "season" her to it. He married her to stop her being able to testify against him. Most husbands, even the violent ones don't sell their wives to other men. To pretend it was simply domestic violence rather than a way for him to make money from her body is ridiculous.

"Linda's problems were caused by her husband, not the porn industry per se."

She was raped to make the most famous porn movie of all time. And you pretend that has nothing to do with the porn industry? Denial levels are rising steeply I see.

"Since Linda's revelations the mainstraim porn industry has vastly improved their working conditions and I do not beleive all women working in porn are victims. It's frankly not true."

Prove it.

"Candida Royalle is a famous porn actress who established her own company specialising in making porn aimed at women as oppsed to the usual male orientated audience. She has been hugely sucessful and maintains the fact that women have a right to porn also."

That's one. One woman in a sea of men, but the one woman is enough for people to pretend that it's all equal and hunky dory rather than a male created, male run industry based on the prostitution and sale of women's bodies to other men.

Are you Zebedee by the way? You answered the points I made to him.

People buy Cocaine but it is ilegal because it is wrong.

Porn is legal because it's not wrong/bad. Not because people buy it.

That's a crazy arguement.

Heh, its interesting how many men have turned up to defend their porn on an almost wholly women-dominated board.

When I was talking about Mumsnetters I was thinking of the typical poster here who is female.

men are mumsnetters too

thankfully
it makes the discussion broader

Dr Northener - not sure if you were talking to me then ... but that was what my argument is.

It can not (and should not) be made illegal.

But, there could be stricter controls on it (not sure legally what they are anyway!)

The point is that men's experience of pornography and women's experience of pornography is very different.

is it

"...defend their porn" !

Get a grip... it's not our porn, you seem to be tarring everyone with the same brush.

My previous partner, liked watching lesbian porn, i.e. two women pleasuring each other. She used to find it herself. She's on mumsnet btw, and is well respected - i.e. very normal.

I felt no need to respond to you point by point as others had already done so, read the links i posted in any case.

You can't make the wild accusations that you do and not expect people to be annoyed. That could be your intention though... Good discussion anyway.

Yes of course it is, zippitippitoes. I can't believe you are even asking that question.

Women see porn and they seem themselves as the objects to be used and to please men (a very basic example of this is the numbers of women getting Brazilian waxes - a direct result of what porn actresses are expected to do to themselves). Also if their male partner is watching porn they may see themselves as in competition witht he women in pornography - it happens quite a lot.

Men see themselves as the protagonist in the film (it's why they keep calling it a "fantasy" because they fantasize being him). Like I said they pay other men to f*ck women for them. It's a male bonding experience.

but doesn't that imply that women don't enjoy or take an intitiative in sex

I don't know why but it always creeps me out when men talk about their female partners' sexual proclivities. Especially when amazingly enough it coincides so perfectly with what they like.

I don't think so ZTT. Perhaps you could explain your reasoning.

Elizabetth,
Do you reaise that porn between a loving couple, is different to porn that is barely illegal?

I'm not Zebedee no Elizabetth

I still maintain Linda Lovelace was a victim of her evil husband. He would have been an evil fucker what ever industry he was involved in.

Som emen like porn, some women like porn. There are many sucesful females in the industry including Candida Royalle, the women Zebedee linked to and Dian Hansen - America's most sucessful porn editor.

They are the proof that it is not a humiliating and degrading industry.

If you as a viewer feel degraded when watchjing porn that is an entirely different issue to the actress being degraded.

Some women have a problem with pornography because of the problem women have with female competition. Women can feel insecure about other attractive women and that ca cause huge problems imo.

well because women don't always see themselves as objects in a sex scenario